Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

[Saijun]

Hello friends,

In this forum, there is much good discussion about Emptiness, Suchness, Shikantaza, Gathas, and other very good topics for discussion. However, it seems that the "beginner" or "number" topics do not surface as much, i.e.,

4 Noble Truths,
Noble 8-fold Path,
6 Perfections,
12-fold Chain of Dependent Origination,
16 Bodhisattva Precepts.

While discussion of Emptiness, Suchness, etc. can lead to very good and fruitful discourse, I am considering taking a sabbatical from these discussions in order to focus on some of the less spoken of topics here; a sort of "Beginners Retreat," if you will, for this perennial beginner. What I am wondering is whether any of you would be inclined to join me, to discuss the material and explain where my thoughts or interpretations are misguided or just wildly inaccurate.

Please let me know. I will be using this thread to post any musings or insights that come up as I go through the teachings here, starting with the "Buddha Basics" section of the "Talks and Teachings..." forum.

Metta,

Saijun

[Taigu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Saijun,please do so...

4, 8,6, 12, 16...Numbers.
Drawing life by numbers...or letters...
By the way the so called suchness (not even a word, once you don't care) contains all numbers.

Back to basics...Sure!

The real basic is nameless, wordless and numberless.

Forget even your name and why and what you came for
SHIKANTAZA
Forget numbers, words and letters


sometimes things have to be explained
Sometimes things have to be silenced and kept unsaid


Do as you wish, and spare us the lesson about this being better than that

In suchness


gassho



Taigu

[Jiken]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Don't forget the Jukai Forum for the Precepts

viewforum.php?f=7

[Saijun]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Do as you wish, and spare us the lesson about this being better than that

Hello Rev. Taigu,

I'm sorry if my message was interpreted as a "lesson about this being better than that." Really, it was just meant to say that I as a practitioner feel that I need to get "back to basics" for a short while, and inviting others to join me if they choose.

Not better, not worse, not even really different.

Just a refresher course for an always-deluded always-beginner.

Metta,

Saijun

[Taigu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

And..don't forget that every inch of this unniverse is Kannon

if it is not so, what is it?

Glass? edge? car? newspaper? boy? Girl?


it is both an neither nor.

kannon's body.

Watch.

Listen.

You can challenge, Saijun.
You may not.
Open. Open.

Kannon



beyond

so much beyond

it is here and now.


gassho



Taigu

[Saijun]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Don't forget the Jukai Forum for the Precepts

viewforum.php?f=7

Hello Mike,

That was actually what sparked the thought in the first place; for a practitioner as weak as I am, the more I can study and work toward personifying the precepts, the better, and most of the activity in the precept study forum happens during Ango and the months before Jukai.

Metta,

Saijun

[Taigu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

You are not weak, not weaker than I am
And all this sounds sooooooooooooooooo spiritual :roll:


Read what I wrote with care. Be gentle to yourself. See kannon in your life and let it go.

No big deal, really.

Taigu

[anista]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Hello Saijun,

I'm always in for a good discussion. I will contribute in any way I can. Hopefully, many others in our samgha will join in too.

[Seiryu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Don't forget the Jukai Forum for the Precepts

viewforum.php?f=7

Hello Mike,

That was actually what sparked the thought in the first place; for a practitioner as weak as I am, the more I can study and work toward personifying the precepts, the better, and most of the activity in the precept study forum happens during Ango and the months before Jukai.

Metta,

Saijun

It sounds like a good idea. I think intellectually understanding and working with these topics can be helpful, only after that can we truly be able to let it go and embody it.

I too wanted to go back to the precept to deepen my shallow understanding of it...

Four noble truths are a good place to start. Buddha's first discourse. Let's see how it goes...

Gassho

Seiryu

[Kaishin]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

I'm with you Saijun (Can I call you Perry, or do you prefer Saijun?). I understand what Taigu is getting at, but for those of us particularly with short backgrounds in Buddhism/Zen, I don't think it's such a bad idea.

So where do you want to start? I'm game!

Gassho,
Matt

[Saijun]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

I'm with you Saijun (Can I call you Perry, or do you prefer Saijun?). I understand what Taigu is getting at, but for those of us particularly with short backgrounds in Buddhism/Zen, I don't think it's such a bad idea.

So where do you want to start? I'm game!

Gassho,
Matt

Hello Matt,

Oh, Saijun, Perry, Foolish, Idjit (that's an Arkansas word :wink; call me whatever you'd like--it's all beating around the bush anyway.

It sounds like a good idea. I think intellectually understanding and working with these topics can be helpful, only after that can we truly be able to let it go and embody it.

I too wanted to go back to the precept to deepen my shallow understanding of it...

Four noble truths are a good place to start. Buddha's first discourse. Let's see how it goes...

Gassho

Seiryu

Hello Seiryu,

Does there have to be a dichotomy between understanding and letting go? Where does one start and the other end?

After re-reading Rev. Taigu's remarks a few times, I think I have an inkling into what he was saying, and it was sage guidance for me, for sure. Perhaps he will be kind enough to give us additional perspective on occasion, with his decades of experience and insight.

Perhaps taking the discussion slowly, with a day or two for reading and reflection, and a few days for discussion of each point?

Maybe we could find time for an occasional Skype conference call to discuss "face to face (or voice to voice)" on occasion?

Just thoughts.

Metta,

Saijun

[Hoyu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Saijun wrote:
In this forum, there is much good discussion about Emptiness, Suchness, Shikantaza, Gathas, and other very good topics for discussion. However, it seems that the "beginner" or "number" topics do not surface as much, i.e.,

4 Noble Truths,
Noble 8-fold Path,
6 Perfections,
12-fold Chain of Dependent Origination,
16 Bodhisattva Precepts.

While discussion of Emptiness, Suchness, etc. can lead to very good and fruitful discourse, I am considering taking a sabbatical from these discussions in order to focus on some of the less spoken of topics here; a sort of "Beginners Retreat," if you will, for this perennial beginner. What I am wondering is whether any of you would be inclined to join me, to discuss the material and explain where my thoughts or interpretations are misguided or just wildly inaccurate.

Hi Saijun,
I think this is a great idea. A good refresher for veterans and learning opportunity for the newer folks like me.

Gassho,
John

[Seiryu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Does there have to be a dichotomy between understanding and letting go? Where does one start and the other end?

Of course not, they both feed off each other. there is no end to one and beginning to the other.

But someone I feel that understanding things in the head is often looked down upon since it is not yet an experience. (maybe thats just my wrong view on it) so I wanted to sort of bring them both back into light.

Gassho

Seiryu

[Taigu]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Just some food for non-thoughts...

Real understanding has nothing to do with our head.
There is nothing wrong with our head.
No need to be headless chicken or man.
What is really wrong is how attached we are with what 's going on up there.

This thread is great, a good refresher. Go on, bring the notions and potions. Let's have a look at this.

gassho


Taigu

[Kaishin]

Re: Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Just some food for non-thoughts...

Real understanding has nothing to do with our head.
There is nothing wrong with our head.
No need to be headless chicken or man.
What is really wrong is how attached we are with what 's going on up there.

This thread is great, a good refresher. Go on, bring the notions and potions. Let's have a look at this.

gassho


Taigu

But didn't Dogen argue that only painted rice cakes could satisfy hunger? Yes, there is nothing wrong with our head, but as Jundo always notes, we are human and need to let our minds work on ideas, too. Are discussion of the four noble truths, paramitas, et al not useful for everyone, but especially for those new to Buddhism/Zen? Why do we spend so much time studying for Jukai when real understanding has nothing to do with our head?

Maybe we need a bit of thinking along with our thinking-non-thinking? It seems perspectives are different for those who've been practicing for decades as opposed to a few years!

I don't know...