Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

[Hans]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Hello Jundo,

in your last post you wrote:
"Buddhism, during its history, is also not without fault and should not throw stones."

I do not think anyone ever suggested in this thread that Buddhism was/is pure and perfect in its actions through its different cultural variations over time. My point is that we cannot just focus exclusively on the positive sides of inter-faith inspiration and understanding, since religious practise is never one hundred percent a-political. Evaluating the actual "actions" and tendencies of different religious currents has to include the real-life consequences that certain mind sets entail. In the case of Buddhism e.g. this meant and means that notions of karma have often led to people taking a slightly passive and fatalist approach to the ills in their own society ("It's their karma.").

Religions form around human needs, which is why they share a lot of the same territory. At the same time however, the differences between religions are not just to be found in the aesthetic and the cosmetic.

As a first starting point, one might consider Prof. Jan Assmann's and Prof. Theo Sundermeier's notion of primary and secondary religions, which get mentioned in this very interesting non-specialist blogpost:

http://egregores.blogspot.com/2009/11/e ... ories.html

Buddhism, although a "secondary" religion founded on the revelation of Siddhartha Gautama, is insofar special as it has been "relatively" non-aggressive for large parts of its history (and yes, there are a whole list of exceptions).

Why do I even mention all this?

Because the historical body of evidence points toward a great probability that an overall positive and non critical reception of Christian-Zen will not benefit the survival of the Dharma in the long term, however it will benefit many Christians insofar as it supplies them with a wonderful technique to experience and to get closer to "God".

The vedic notion of "the truth is one, the wise call it by many names" was never at the heart of the mainstream practise of the great monotheist traditions. The tolerance we encounter nowadays in western countries is more due to humanism than to original monotheism.


There is no point in over-intellectualsing life, compassion etc. At the same time, negating differences for the sake of harmony can turn into a kind of escapism and withdrawal from daily life as well.

Gassho,

Hans

[Jundo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Hi David,

I feel that some of your conclusions are possibly hindering and barriers of the mind.

Is "worshiping God" so fundamentally dualistic that it blocks that realization. Zen and Buddhism are the path to realization, to enlightenment, right? So does adding "worshiping God" and various other dualistic beliefs about the universe and our place in the universe act as a roadblock to enlightenment?

Saying that "worshiping God blocks realization" is itself truly the erecting of a dualistic division in your mind that can block realization.

A truly "non-dualistic" realization might feel something like "neither worshiping God nor not worshiping God blocks realization, for realization cannot be blocked ... as realization holds and easily allows for all". In fact, even asserting "worshiping God blocks realization" or "worshiping God does not block realization" will not block realization in the least when realization is correctly perceived.

Does the presence of a star in the sky block your realization? Does the absence of a star in the sky block your realization? Do high mountains and walls block your realization? So, how would God or her absence block realization?

In our Buddhist way, the stars and mountains and walls are seen as just the dance of emptiness, which is anything but empty and void. There is no "mountain" truly there, yet there is a mountain to climb. There is no wall there, but what do you stub your toe against? If someone finds that their "Buddha" or "Emptiness" feels like what some call "God", or that one does not leave room for the others ... well, names do not matter, and there is more than enough room when all mental barriers are knocked down.

In Shikantaza, we drop all judgments and divisions in order to manifest realization. I advise you to drop the judgments that "worshiping God hinders Shikantaza" ... for otherwise you hinder Shikantaza by the fact of the judgment itself.

If I live a virtuous life, keep the precepts, worship the one true God (or even The Buddha) for 23 and a half hours a day with my very marrow, teach others to worship in the same way, but drop all that when I practice zazen (shikantaza) for a half hour each day, am I on the Buddha's path?

In Shikantaza, we drop in order to find what was all along. It is not a matter of 30 minutes or 30 Kalpa. If there is a God to worship, we sit Shikantaza. If there is no God to worship, we sit Shikantaza.

Being filled with greed, anger and divisions can block realization ... but worshiping a God (or not) cannot (assuming that doing so is the absence of greed, anger and mental divisions).

Enlightenment is so vast and wide that it comfortably holds both God and her absence.

Please sit with that.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Dear Hans,

1 - Your opinion is too much up in your own head, creating divisions and barriers that need not be there. While what you say may be true in some cases, it need not be true in all cases. You need to sit with this issue more and drop some of these opinions about what is or is not possible. Some ways of combining Zen with other beliefs may be harmful, but some may be not.

2 - Some forms (maybe the most common forms) of Christianity and Judaism may be practiced in ways that shut out or are incompatible with other religious traditions, but not all Christians and Jews practice in such ways. Some ways of practicing Christianity and Judaism (such as what Fr. K expressed above) are quite compatible and harmonious with Zen Practice. That does not mean that all Zen practitioners need be Christians, nor that all Christians need be Zen folks. It merely means that there are some folks walking the path(s) in a way quite nurturing of both.

3- Your statement is not the policy of this Sangha, which is quite welcoming of people who wish to practice the Buddha's Way ... whether Christians, Jews, believers in Thor, Atheists or Agnostics, or folks who do not give much thought or define themselves within any such categories. You are a priest in training here, and I am concerned that some people may think you are speaking for this place. You are not.

Finally, please note that I am not saying that "people must be a Christian or Jew to practice Zen Buddhism". Of course not. Nor am I saying that all ways of practicing Christianity, Judaism or other religions are compatible with Zen practice. Of course not, because some are quite incompatible (especially the judgmental and closed versions of those paths). Nor am I saying that it is wrong for some to reject Christianity etc. when practicing Buddhism ... for it is fine if someone feels it not right for them and wish to devote themselves to a Buddhist path alone. All I am saying is that certain flavors of Christianity etc. are quite compatible with what we practice here ... just as being a Yankees fan, a Red Sox fan or having no interest in baseball whatsoever are each perfectly compatible with Zen Buddhist practice. It is not harmful to mix these things when done in a positive way. Furthermore, one can be a non-Christian, a mailman, gay or straight, a Conservative or Liberal, an Atheist or Agnostic and be a Zen Buddhist, attaining realization. Realization is so spacious and whole that it is found as both God and Atheists.

Gassho, Jundo

[Onshin]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Hiya,
probably going off at one of my tangents here, (that's the atristic mind for you), years ago when ran a bookshop one of my customers was an american quaker teaching at the uni. We talked a bit about religion and I told him I saw quakers as 'Zen Christians', a view I had got from the way they have honed down thier worship to just that, the barenes of thier meeting halls, way they havwe tolerance for other faiths, going so far as to allow Buddhists to have religious meetings in thier halls, also thier compassion and non-violence and so on, well, far from being offended as some Christians would be, he understood and was flattered by the tag, he, like me, saw no dichotomy there. Can't we all?

Gassho

Joe

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Is "worshiping God" so fundamentally dualistic that it blocks that realization. Zen and Buddhism are the path to realization, to enlightenment, right? So does adding "worshiping God" and various other dualistic beliefs about the universe and our place in the universe act as a roadblock to enlightenment?

Well , you know Doogie, it all honesty...I don't know. Perhaps that is why I am here and doing this practice, to find out. Since I haven't as yet achieved enlightenment (that I know of) I couldn't tell you if it was because I have belief in God, or if it is just that I am a plodding lazy human. However, I would like to be allowed the opportunity to try along with all the other broken individuals that populate our universe, and not necessarily be excluded simply predicated on the fact that I am Christian, or Jewish, a Muslim or a Scientologist. I would hope that in the 80,00 Dharma Teachings of the Buddha there might have been one for me. I know that my heart is open to it, even if some in the room believe I have the wrong clothes on to be at the party.

Actually I want you to know that I appreciate this questioning since it again helps me to redefine for myself why I am here.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Saijun]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Actually I want you to know that I appreciate this questioning since it again helps me to redefine for myself why I am here.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

Hello Brother Kryillos,

Isn't it this very "defining" that keeps us locked up in delusion? Thinking that we "are this, not that; want this, not that; are here for this, not for that" etc. I've always seen "God" (put in quotes because I know my view is quite heretical) as something like the undefined "wilderness" that lies beyond views and concepts, not limited by time and place. If a practice is to lead us closer to the undefined, unborn, undying Reality, how would defining oneself help?


I promise I'm not trying to be critical; this is just a very, very interesting topic, and I appreciate all of the views expressed!

Metta,

Perry

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I will sit with that Jundo. Thank you. And I'm sure you're right. But I'm still unsure about the more practical applications of being both an orthodox Christian priest and a zen priest. I'm just curious how your dharma brother, for instance, functions as both a zen teacher and a priest in the lutheran orthodox church (this thread is about priests). Just as you don't want Hans giving his opinion and having us mistaking it for the sangha's opinion, I have to assume that he runs into conflict between his Christian dogma and his Buddhist teachings regarding homosexuality, heaven and hell, whatever. He did become a priest in the church of Sweden after he received dharma transmission, so maybe there is no conflict. Maybe he's simply a Christian priest who practices zazen.

I looked for other christian priests/ministers who are also zen teachers, and there are a few. Here's an article on Father Robert Kennedy, a jesuit and zen teacher. https://creedible.com/creed/featured...zen-meditation

"Kennedy has received the title roshi, or “old teacher” in the Zen tradition. As a committed Christian, priest, and Zen teacher, he has helped thousands to grow closer to Christ by helping them to empty their minds so they might be filled with the mind of Christ."

I may be misinterpreting this, but it sounds like he's using zen for the purpose of getting closer to Christ (which doesn't seem in line with 'sitting for no purpose.' Of course that can be interpreted many different ways, depending on how one wishes to interpret it. The mind of Christ could be substituted for the mind of Buddha. But emptying the mind of all notions of self so that one can replace it with another, whether Christ, Buddha, or something else?

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Actually I want you to know that I appreciate this questioning since it again helps me to redefine for myself why I am here.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

I say the more diversity the better. And I am trying to define myself all the time. Maybe that's my problem.

Gassho,

David

[Amelia]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Is "worshiping God" so fundamentally dualistic that it blocks that realization. Zen and Buddhism are the path to realization, to enlightenment, right? So does adding "worshiping God" and various other dualistic beliefs about the universe and our place in the universe act as a roadblock to enlightenment?

I find that seeing it as a kind of "flow of the Dao..." A living, chaotic thing... I don't know. I feel it is there, but I do not understand it.

Seeing it in this undefined, yet friendly way, does not seem to interfere with my "emptiness" at all...

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Isn't it this very "defining" that keeps us locked up in delusion?

Hello Perry,

I don't think I am trying to "define" myself in any way. What I was trying to say there in that the questions helped me to "redefine for myself why I am here" is that these sorts of questions help to clear away any clouds that may have settled in my head, and help me to remember why I took up the study of Zen in the first place.

...And to Chugai,, in answer to your question, about my particular church's affiliation with Rome; no, we are not in union with Rome. I never have been with either the Orthodox Church nor now with the Anglican Church.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Saijun]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Hello Perry,

I don't think I am trying to "define" myself in any way. What I was trying to say there in that the questions helped me to "redefine for myself why I am here" is that these sorts of questions help to clear away any clouds that may have settled in my head, and help me to remember why I took up the study of Zen in the first place.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

Ah. Thank you, Brother Kyrillos, for the clarification.

Metta,

Perry

[Ankai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Another baffling point (to me) to walking the Buddhist path as a Christian or the Christian Path as a Buddhist is why?

Is it a case of riding two horses or jack of all trades syndrome?

Just my own thoughts here...
The sky is blue. The sea is blue. Both those things are true. Both are equally false... neither the atmosphere nor water actually have color. that is true too.
In order for one of those statements to be true, does the other have to be LESS true?
Look deeper at it, and we see that those colors only even exist because of the light of the Sun, both the atmosphere and the water reflecting its rays off one another. And then we must acknowledge that the colors, sea, sky, Sun, and even the "selves" seeing them are really just matters of perception.
So... maybe it's neither "riding two horses" or any kind of "syndrome." I think it's simply a matter of seeing truth two ways, as one might see the color of the sky reflected in the water or vice-versa...or, two truths in the reflection of the same Light.

[Ankai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Christianity and the Dharma seem to me not to be bookends.
Maybe I'm just dense. I can't make Christ's message of God's redemption for mankind etc. work for me.
I know he supposedly said some nice things about the Golden Rule and all that but he also supposedly said some things about eternal life in the hereafter, he supposedly walked on water, raised the dead, etc . .. and I know that folks have written wild magical accounts of the Buddha like he was born walking and talking etc but I cannot make sense of those accounts either and I do not believe them. I believe little about accounts of the historical Buddha.
Well, let's say for the sake of argument (not in anyway meaning aggression... just trying to say what I mean clearly,) and suspending disbelief for a moment that it was ALL true. Christ really WAS God incarnate. Or, let's look at them all as characters in a story.
So then, it was God who walked on water. God who raised the dead. God incarnate, in the flesh as Christ. So... what would be the big deal? He's God, right? What's the big whoop about the laws of physics not applying to the Almighty? Nothing, really. Not special at all for God. Right?
But look at the STORIES themselves... Jesus walking on the water is rippling with symbolism, isn't it? Think of the sea as the troubles, problems, phenomena, delusions, samsaric horror and illusions of this life... he walks above all that. As the shattering "storm" rages around him, Jesus simply walks through it, not avoiding it or creating a magic pathway, he simply walks calmly through the horror as it is, seeing it for what it really is and not letting it stop him. Pretty zenny when you look at it.
And THAT isn't even the important part. What really matters in that story is the usually glossed over or forgotten part... that Peter ALSO walked on water, albeit briefly. Sure... when he looked around- and was affected by what he sensed as a man- and got scared, he started to go under, but when he was able to just move in faith, ignoring the appeaance of the world around him, he stood on the waves too. And if Peter can do it, so can you or I. I think there's a LOT a Buddhist can get from that story. you may not have faith in Christ, or even in the Buddha, but you DO have faith ITSELF... and we CAN step out of the boat. It's about leaning on our faith when we step out of our comfort zone... and that, to me is what sitting and practice are all about.
The symbolism of the raising of the dead, the blind gaining sight, the lame rising to walk... these are stories that apply to EVERYONE, regardless of how one belief system may have co-opted them. Remember... even the Bible doesn't call him the Son of Christianity. He's called the Son of Man. Looked at symbollically rather than literally, the Gospels can take on a dimension that applies to anyone, and which really, at its core, isn't in any way contrary to the Dharma.
That's my take, anyway. I haven't got much use for Christianity or religion in general... but I remain "spiritual." I think I'd be silly if I rejected a teacher because I didn't like the name of the school.

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

What's held as one's private belief (or private religion) is not the only issue here, and that's what most people are focusing on. Again, this thread is about those who walk both the Christian and Buddhist paths as priests in both religions.

Is zen Buddhism a religion with beliefs, or is it a philosophy that enhances other belief systems. If Buddhists don't believe in an everlasting, unchanging immortal soul, and the belief of an everlasting, immortal soul is the cornerstone of Christianity, how can this dichotomy be reconciled?

Looking around the web, I see there are many Christians who use zen to get closer to Christ and to find a more mystical connection to their God. There is nothing wrong with this, but is it Zen? Or more specifically, is it Buddhist zen? Also, if you wholeheartedly believe that there is a God out there who will judge you for your sins, can you still teach the dharma?

And I think we should be careful here about interpreting Christian stories from a Buddhist perspective. It makes no more sense than interpreting Buddhist stories from a Christian perspective. I can tell you my dream, and you can tell me what it means to you, but it won't mean the same thing it means to me, and after all, it's my dream. The life of Jesus may have meant something very different to the man who lived it than to the men who wrote it down, but all we know of his life is what they wrote.

Scripture indicates that Jesus was not denying His deity by referring to Himself as the Son of Man. In fact, it is highly revealing that the term “Son of Man” is used in Scripture in contexts of Christ's deity. For example, the Bible says that only God can forgive sins (Isaiah 43:25; Mark 2:7). But as the “Son of Man,” Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). Likewise, Christ will return to Earth as the “Son of Man” in clouds of glory to reign on Earth (Matthew 26:63-64).

He may have been denying his divinity when he proclaimed himself to be the son of man. Or not. We'll never know.

[Ankai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

And I think we should be careful here about interpreting Christian stories from a Buddhist perspective. It makes no more sense than interpreting Buddhist stories from a Christian perspective.

Well... of course... that's why the point is to read BOTH - or anything- from a PERONAL perspective. "What is the story saying to me?" as opposed to, "What do THEY say this story means." I'm sorry if I was unclear.