Help

[Jundo]

Re: Help

Hi,

I very much disagree that one has to abandon another religion in order to practice Zen Buddhism. In fact, if one looks at the history of Buddhism in general, Zen in particular, that was never the case in Asia. The Buddha incorporated many Indian gods, beleifs and practices right from the start (while, of course, rejecting other important aspects of Brahmanism ... much as Jesus kept key Jewish beliefs while making something new too), most Chinese may have mixed their Zen Practice with Daoist practices, Confucian social beliefs and Pure Land Buddhism ... even Dogen (who did not actually have to deal with Taoism and Confucianism in Japan, as they were not so prevalent there as much as in China) honored many Shinto practices while still a through and through Zen Buddhist, as do most modern Japanese Zen priests I know (almost every major Zen temple in Japan, including Sojiji and Eiheiji have Shinto Shrines on the premises that protect the temple. When I visited Nishijima Roshi at the New Years, I noticed that he had no trouble to incorporate many Shinto practices too). Most of the Zen teachers in America I know of Jewish background (a lot!) at some point reincorporate many Jewish practices and beliefs (Norman Fischer and Bernie Glassman are just two examples) They were able to keep each in its own sphere without conflict, and often with great harmony.

http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?It ... ing&id=905

It is more a matter how it is done.

I agree with Hans though that one must practice Zen in accord with the Buddhist teachings. We must not leave the Buddhist teachings aside, and think that all beliefs are the same. There is no Zen free of the Buddha Dharma. However, one can practice the Buddha Dharma and find a way without conflict, and manifesting great harmony simultaneously with other beliefs ... just as one can be a Zen Buddhist bus driver or a Zen Buddhist cowboy without conflict with the "Zen Buddhist" part, one can be a Zen Buddhist Baptist if one's heart finds that "no conflict, great harmony".

As Hans said, I believe that


Sila (Buddhist ethics), Samadhi, (concentration) and Prajna (wisdom) all have to come together for Zazen to really unfold. No right view without deeply realising the four noble truths either. ... the three marks of existence (anatta, anicca, dukkha), the four noble truths and the noble eightfold path + dependent origination are key cornerstones

But I believe that that can happen while still finding a place for other religious practices in one's life ... and perhaps finding the same voiceless voice in each, and one can find how those teachings even manifest in Baptist practice. (Now, whether the Baptist minister will be as liberal as I am with regard to incorporating Buddhism into his beliefs, from his side of the issue ... that is a different story).

As I often say:

Is there a "God named 'Jehovah'"? Jesus? Or "Bob"? No God? .......... If so, live human life, fetch wood and carry water.

Is there not some "God named 'Jehovah'"? No "Jesus"? And no "Bob"? No "no God"? .......... If not, live human life, fetch wood and carry water.

In any case ... fetch wood, carry water.

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Re: Help

Hello Jundo!

It's lovely to see these two sides of the same coin.

Part of this equation seems to me as having to do with how we define religious practice. I see no trouble at all incorporating social, ritual and other cultural aspects from different religions...or mixing them with Zen liturgy, as long as the core contains the Buddhadharma. But unlike in Buddhism, where different containers may contain the same potent juice....there are things like catechisms and religious dogmas that do not just apply to some ideas in the minds of elitist bookworms, but are at the core of the day to day life and faith itself of millions of different people.

Now, the mystical and contemplative traditions of just about any religious tradition often come to similar conclusions regarding the nature of reality, which is wonderful and creates the possibility to exchange wisdom, yet they are by far not the vast mass of people whose lives throughout the centuries have actually defined their religious traditions per se. To say so would IMHO mean to belittle the non-contemplatives who might simply believe in e.g. a personal eternal god (which means either "anatta" is wrong or God is wrong ) , an eternal unchanging atman etc. and get on with their lives, slaughtering certain animals to please their God/s and not eating others for the same reason.

Gassho,

Hans

[Jundo]

Re: Help

The talk by Father Keating that Taigu posted on another thread is a fine example of someone able to find common ground between his Christianity and Buddhist teachings ...

Hi everybody,

I bumped into this and I listened...Well, have a go, it is really worth it. It will shed more light on why we let go of kensho. I don't always agree with the way he tells the story of the first transmission ( and why not, pretty dramatic and interesting anyway), but I love what he comes up with describing this reality. So close to our practice. So intimate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88UukqH3kDQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=_9J1zw 50mco&feature=grec_index[/video]]

... grec_index

gassho

Taigu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88UukqH3kDQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=_9J1zw 50mco&feature=grec_index[/video]]

... grec_index

[Jundo]

Re: Help

Now, the mystical and contemplative traditions of just about any religious tradition often come to similar conclusions regarding the nature of reality, which is wonderful and creates the possibility to exchange wisdom, yet they are by far not the vast mass of people whose lives throughout the centuries have actually defined their religious traditions per se. To say so would IMHO mean to belittle the non-contemplatives who might simply believe in e.g. a personal eternal god (which means either "anatta" is wrong or God is wrong ) , an eternal unchanging atman etc. and get on with their lives, slaughtering certain animals to please their God/s and not eating others for the same reason.

Gassho,

Hans

"Popular Buddhism" among the "vast masses" (as you put it) of Asia looks more like "popular Christianity" in how it is practiced than it does "contemplative" Buddhism. Buddha is a messiah or god like figure, and folks work to stay on his good side to get rewards in this life and go to heaven in the next.

What is more, almost every Zen priest I know ... including Dogen ... practiced a Buddhism that was a mix of the contemplative and popular. Dogen had plenty of ceremonies around Eiheiji, and plenty of teachings, that incorporated such beliefs. In China, Zen eventually merged with Pure Land ... which is a form of Buddhism strikingly similar to Christianity in its basic framework and beliefs. It did so at the level both of social ritual AND in its deeper contemplative and philosophical side.

My point: The possibility to mix Zen Buddhism with Christianity is just the same.

What is more, I cannot think of one doctrine of Christianity or Judaism that could not sit comfortably with the Buddha's teachings. Can you name one? (The only kind I can think of, right off, is a doctrine on the Christian or Jewish side that said "our way or the highway". But, if you put that aside, anything can fit).

Gassho, Jundo

[Adam]

Re: Help

Hi Adam

Just a quick "I disagree" from my corner regarding some of the things you have written. Obviously we can never truly argue with what we "believe", so please don't understand what I am writing the wrong way. I am not trying to say "I am right", rather I would just like to highlight a different perspective.

You wrote:
"I believe that you can use Zen regardless of being Christian, Muslim, etc. ... The great thing about Buddhism is that you can use what makes sense to you.
(...)

Sila (Buddhist ethics), Samadhi, (concentration) and Prajna (wisdom) all have to come together for Zazen to really unfold. No right view without deeply realising the four noble truths either.

I don't doubt that sitting down and entering deep meditative states can lead to great realisations...it just ain't Zazen IMHO.

Buddhism split into dozens of different school precisely because "using what makes sense to you" did not make sense in a communal setting. Once differences in practice and/or theory become too great, it's schism time. If you don't stick to certain precise rules, or get funny ideas about ordaining women and put them into practise...you have a great problem with most of the traditional Theravada establishment. If you don't do your Ngondro preliminary exercises, you are not allowed to receive most of the empowerments and instructions for higher Yoga tantras etc. in the Tibetan traditions. The same would go for Japanese Buddhist traditions in different waysetc., although I agree that certain streams of Buddhism embrace syncretism more than others.

It is true that the different Buddhist traditions do not have a pan-buddhist inquisition in place that would excommunicate loads of people, burn witches etc. (thanks for that!!!). But all Buddhist traditions (right until the time they entered the western industrial world) are/were governed by highly detailed rule-systems. I am really glad that we as westerners have the opportunity to look for what is most fitting...but as a historical tradition Buddhism isn't half as liberal as most of us westerners would want it to be. Now of course we can claim to know that the essence of Buddhism is such and such and doesn't have anything to do with the cumbersome organised religions calling themselves Buddhist.

I know that I am repeating myself, but I will say it again. Zen is a Buddhist tradition. Take the cornerstones of Buddhism out of it and it ain't Zen anymore. It is a finger pointing at something that is beyond notions of religions (and is all of them at the same time). But not all fingers appear the same initially.

Most individuals growing up in a western consumerist society don't like rules that limit their personal freedom in any way. We are all used to shopping for what we want and discarding what we don't want.
Due to Buddhist traditions not being able to enact some kind of social peer pressure in the West, we often feel that that makes it such a freedom loving religious tradition. My own research and my experience of living in Japan tells me otherwise.

PPS - The Dalai Lama also said, "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness." That is true, too.

...as for the Dalai Lama, whom I highly respect btw. ....just google Dorje Shugden controversy and stuff related to CIA covert warfare in Tibet....day to day life is a whole lot nastier than most of the Dalai Lama's coffee table book quotes ( no matter how true they might be on some levels).

May we all sentient beings realise the truth together.

Gassho,

Hans

Hans,

First of all, thank you for your reply! I always appreciate what you say here. Reading over my post, I believe that I might have been too general in my words than what I actually meant.

I believe that if one is Christian, Muslim, or whatever, that Buddhism doesn't conflict with that at all. If someone believes in Jesus, why can't they sit zazen? If they sit without any judgements, expectations, or goals, then isn't that still zazen? (I shouldn't have used the word "realization") Regardless if they believe there is a god or not (or, like me, cannot say one way or the other). We need to practice Buddhism in the ways that yourself and Jundo described, of course, but I don't feel that other religions would be in conflict with zen. The Four Noble Truths and The Eightfold Path are not any different if you believe in some higher power. It doesn't take away or add to those teachings, in my opinion.

The Buddha said:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

That's basically what I was trying to say in my original post. If you are Christian, but struggling with your beliefs and Zen Buddhism makes sense to you, then by all means, give it a try and see what happens. If it doesn't make sense to you, then don't walk this path. I practice Zen Buddhism because it makes sense to me. Christianity doesn't make sense to me, so I don't practice Christianity.

If any activity is causing yourself or others harm, then one needs to stop that activity. If zazen is causing one to suffer mentally, then maybe that person should step back from the cushion and decide what is causing this suffering. If it is the practice itself, then maybe this practice isn't one that person should follow.

I just don't believe that other religions add or take away anything from Buddhism. Of course, if you start breaking Buddhism into little pieces to try and make them fit into your dogma, then, obviously, that's not Buddhism. However, Buddhist ethics, The Four Noble Truths, The Eightfold Path, or even the Precepts don't really deviate much from the positives in other religions. Be good to yourself and others (not two). We are all connected regardless if I'm Buddhist and the person sitting next to me is Christian.

The Dalai Lama quote is just that...a quote. It works for this situation and this question that was brought to the sangha. Compassion and kindness should be at the core of every religion.

Thanks again for your reply, and I hope I expanded on my original post to make more sense here. If not, then I will be happy to explain further. The words in my head do not transfer as well to writing for me, at times.

Gassho,

Adam

[Hans]

Re: Help

Hello Jundo,

You said:
"What is more, I cannot think of one doctrine of Christianity or Judaism that could not sit comfortably with the Buddha's teachings. Can you name one? (The only kind I can think of, right off, is a doctrine on the Christian or Jewish side that said "our way or the highway". But, if you put that aside, anything can fit).

I never doubted for one second that there is loads of common ground between most religions, however if you seriously believe that there are no prominent doctrines and/or major assumptions shared by the majority of practitioners that do not sit comfortably with most general Buddhist teachings, I don't know what to say.

I was raised a catholic and also attended protestant religion classes during high school because of my best friend being a protestant. My aunt is a carmelite nun and I have have Jewish and muslim colleagues and/or friends. So although I have no degree in Christian religion and/or comparative theology, please assume that I base my assumptions not on hearsay, but on years of encountering practitioners, studying their traditions and discussing their faith with them.

Here's just a bit food for thought:


Eternal personal God with particular likes and dislikes vs. non-personal mechanic of the universe propelled by Karma

Original Sin vs Karma (two extremely different concepts)

Only One God vs the polytheistic background of Buddhism with Gods appearing right left and center

Jesus/Christianity being the only true way vs. Hinayana path, Mahayana path and Pratyeka-Buddha path as options/ or e.g. only the Lotus sutra being the only true way

God being a personal, sovereign ruler over everything vs. even the highest Gods are subject to Karma and die eventually.

the list could continue for sooo long, but obviously it is easy to say that somewhere in history someone challenged every single one of these assumptions and that "true" monotheists, or polytheists are all about caring and sharing. When looking at the overall impact of religious traditions have had on different societies in general throughout history it makes no sense to take the fringe movements like Quakers, Sufis and contemplative orders as examples for the overall compatibility of world views in general. I love the fact that most of my Christian friends have a liberal approach towards their own scripture, have a live and let live attitude etc. (as do I). However our secular and humanist values have more to do with that than anything else. I'll leave it at that. It's a free country (at least the one I am from). And I agree that when you drop of everything, and I mean everything, even your hope and faith in Jesus/Buddha etc., you might be dropping off body and mind.

Gassho,

Hans

[chicanobudista]

Re: Help

Great post, Hans.

[Jundo]

Re: Help

Hi Hans,

I am not saying that people cannot create conflicts and incompatibilities about doctrines ... because most folks do (boy, do they ... and fight wars about it!)

I am saying that it need not be so. For example, lets look at the examples you mention ...

Eternal personal God with particular likes and dislikes vs. non-personal mechanic of the universe propelled by Karma

Well, breach God's rules ... go to heaven, go to hell. Breach Karmic laws ... go to heaven, go to hell. Works pretty much the same on that score.

So, someone could believe in a personal God, and still believe in Karma. Don't kill, don't steal, don't misuse sexuality with your neighbor's wife ... an easy gap to bridge.

Gautama Buddha incorporated many Indian Gods into Buddhism ... simply making them subservient to Karma (Karma can make a God). Someone, however, could reverse the equation (i.e., some wisdom or God or force made Karma) and still, I feel, be practicing about the same thing.

Original Sin vs Karma (two extremely different concepts)

Said the Buddha, we are all deluded .... yet attain enlightenment, and see that we have never been deluded from the start. Even amid delusion, delusion washed away. Both true at once. Realizing this, we will live a better way.

Said Jesus, we are all sinners ... yet through me, see that we are cleansed. Even living in this world of sin, sin is washed away. Both true at once. Realizing this, we will live a better way.

Again, these two "differences" seem fairly easy to bridge.

Only One God vs the polytheistic background of Buddhism with Gods appearing right left and center

Who is to say if one is the many, the many but one?

Jesus/Christianity being the only true way vs. Hinayana path, Mahayana path and Pratyeka-Buddha path as options/ or e.g. only the Lotus sutra being the only true way

Well, yes, here I agree, as I first said. Even within Buddhism, people fight over "my way or the highway". As I said, it need not be so.

I would put to you that most Buddhists in Asia do not see the different Buddhist paths as "options", and tend to have a "my way or the highway" attitude as much as Christian sects and Jewish sects that can't agree among themselves. I recently read about the big disputes in Southeast Asia among monks who uncover one of their shoulders, and monks who keep both shoulders covered with their robes.

You forgot to mention soul and rebirth. Well, many folks argue that the distinction made in Buddhism between "rebirth" and "reincarnation" (of something to reincarnate) is not so clear. So, Buddhism has a "soul-ish" something, even if it calls it a "Karmic stream" or the like. What is more, the Mahayana includes the view that "there is a self, yet not" .... so we might say, "there is a soul, but not".

My point ... it is not so hard to find common, harmonious ground.

I am being the devil's advocate here. Actually, I am being the advocate for the other guy.

Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: Help

Most of the Zen teachers in America I know of Jewish background (a lot!) at some point reincorporate many Jewish practices and beliefs (Norman Fischer and Bernie Glassman are just two examples) They were able to keep each in its own sphere without conflict, and often with great harmony.

No kidding! Here's just a few...not just zen...
Jack Kornfield, Ram Dass (not tech. buddhist) Sylvia Boorstein, Surya Das,
Stephen Levine, Sharon Salzberg, Joan Borysenko, Thubten Chodren...

I personally think this is awesome. And what's even more awesome is that
they have no conflict between the two worlds. Why, Jundo, do you think so
many Jews have come to Buddhism? I love Judaism. It puts more emphasis
on ethical conduct than it does beliefs. Christianity could learn alot from that.
But, like Christianity, Judaism has its own mystical tradition with the Kabbalah.
So why seek elswhere? This is what fascinates me. Why do people seek elsewhere,
not those who have no beliefs, but those who are firmly grounded in their beliefs,
why do they leave their own tradition and seek elsewhere? And how does one
develop assurance in the path they have chosen for themself?

gassho
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: Help

I personally think this is awesome. And what's even more awesome is that
they have no conflict between the two worlds. Why, Jundo, do you think so
many Jews have come to Buddhism?

Your list does not even scratch the surface!

Personally, I consider myself "culturally Jewish", but practice little if anything from the religion (maybe celebrate the odd holiday here and there). As well, I consider myself an agnostic on most questions of deity, rebirth/reincarnation, heaven and hell.

I am just saying that I don't think that is the only way one has to be.

Now, why so many Jews in Buddhism?

One reason is that some folks who grew up in a religion find it rather cold and sterile, and meditation is a breath of fresh air. Of course, there are Jewish meditation/prayer traditions, but they are not so easy for the novice to get started in.

Also, growing up in a Jewish American family ... there is always an impending sense of doom. I think we are raised with it. It could be all those many many centuries of pogroms and persecution and holocaust ... but there is a definite feeling that bad news and tragedy are just waiting around the corner to happen. Every pimple on my arm must be cancer, everything bad is just waiting to happen. I know that you certainly do not have to be Jewish to have such a natural fear, but it certainly is part of the culture.

There is also, for the same reason, a push from family to "succeed" and "get the degree" etc. ... to help keep your family safe and secure.

I think that is one reason there are so many Jews involved in Zen, at least in North America. It is the medicine for the constant worry we are raised with. Jews are not naturally a "let it be" and "what will be will be" people.

That is my assessment ... which came to me in my third year of law school.

Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: Help

Jundo,

Your honesty was touching. The Jewish people have a legacy
that is unmatched by any other culture in the world. It is
staggering to look at how many of the Nobel Prize winners
in history have been Jewish, in the arts, in science, in economics.
Maybe there is something in the Jewish psyche that feels almost
impelled to help others, to teach, to lead, to seperate what is right
from what is wrong. I dunno. I am getting off course here. So let
me bring it back to my question. I guess I'm wondering if you ever
doubt your course in life? Ever wonder if you should've pursed Judaism
as opposed to Zen? Basically, and I do, do you ever wake up in the middle
of the night and wonder, "What the hell am I doing with my life? If there
is a God, am I following the plan He has laid out for me? Am I on course?"

gassho
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: Help

I guess I'm wondering if you ever
doubt your course in life? Ever wonder if you should've pursed Judaism
as opposed to Zen? Basically, and I do, do you ever wake up in the middle
of the night and wonder, "What the hell am I doing with my life? If there
is a God, am I following the plan He has laid out for me? Am I on course?"

gassho
Greg

No, as a matter of fact, I have woken up many a night ... at times in my life like Fr. K's stroke today ... and felt that, if there is a God, She is more than content with this road I've taken. I don't think She/He would care if you wear the yellow hat or the red hat, are a Buddhist or a Baptist. More than that, I think He would care that you are a good friend, father, husband, person. Whether it is God's Law or Karma ... don't steal, don't do violence, do unto other as you would have them do unto you (the only Buddhist twist on that is that, perhaps, you and others are not two).

[ghop]

Re: Help

if there is a God, She is more than content with this road I've taken. I don't think She/He would care if you wear the yellow hat or the red hat, are a Buddhist or a Baptist. More than that, I think He would care that you are a good friend, father, husband, person. Whether it is God's Law or Karma ... don't steal, don't do violence, do unto other as you would have them do unto you (the only Buddhist twist on that is that, perhaps, you and others are not two).

Jundo,

You have proven that my questions are coming from
an immature perspective. Thank you. I think I just
heard the sound of one hand clapping. Gassho.

Greg

[Dosho]

Re: Help

Also, growing up in a Jewish American family ... there is always an impending sense of doom. I think we are raised with it. It could be all those many many centuries of pogroms and persecution and holocaust ... but there is a definite feeling that bad news and tragedy are just waiting around the corner to happen. Every pimple on my arm must be cancer, everything bad is just waiting to happen. I know that you certainly do not have to be Jewish to have such a natural fear, but it certainly is part of the culture.

There is also, for the same reason, a push from family to "succeed" and "get the degree" etc. ... to help keep your family safe and secure.

I can only speak for myself, but many of these traits are also passed down to people with ancestors in New England, many of whom had ancestors who were calvinists. The guilt of original sin often leads to a sense of impending doom many generations after anyone has actually been calvinist. My mother grew up in Massachusetts and fits all of these traits, particularly the one about "getting the degree", and I know well that such thoughts did not originate with her or even her mother.

So, like Jundo said, zen and buddhism can really be a breath of fresh air, especially for those raised in such religious households...or those like me who are two generations past just going to church on holidays.

Gassho,
Dosho

[ghop]

Re: Help

The guilt of original sin often leads to a sense of impending doom many generations after anyone has actually been calvinist.

Hi Dosho.

You hit the nail on the head! This is exactly what I'm talking about.
When one is raised with the idea of original sin it is not easy to
shake it off. I was raised this way. I was taught to doubt all other
traditions, even if they seem to be teaching the truth, because we
are raised to believe that there is only one truth and everything else
is a clever counterfiet produced by a force that is against God. It
sounds really crazy, I know. But it does damage to the psyche. No
matter what I do, or don't do, there is always a voice in the back of
my mind saying, "Be careful, you just might be playing with fire."
Guilt is a terrible thing to have to live with. Zazen has become a
mirror for me. It seems to be showing me my demons. I thought
I was pretty clean inside. Not so. Not even close.

gassho
Greg