Help

[Hans]

Re: Help

Hi Folks,

this whole notion of Zen practise being beyond religion ( which I seem to detect here and there...maybe I'm just projecting though ) has only truly come to real prominence in the last 150 years since the Meiji restoration as far as I know, if I find the time I will try to find some quotes and sources to back this claim of mine up. Alan Watts and Mr D.T Suzuki did their share...

Dozens of generations of Zen masters had no doubt that Zazen and Buddhadharma were/are not to be divided. Now, I do not mean that the raft equals the shore. The shore we taste every waking moment is truly beyond boxes like -isms and religions, but the raft isn't. Dogen even makes a point in the Shobogenzo to make clear that his take on Buddhism is not to be confused with confucianism and daoism...and doesn't even mention Christianity for obvious cultural/historical reasons (though he might elsewhere, please correct me if you can).

To return to Greg's original question: I think it's important to just give oneself time to figure these things out for oneself through deep, no holds barred inquiry. Joseph Campbell once said "follow your bliss"....just find that bliss and you'll be okay

Gassho,

Hans

[monkton]

Re: Help

Hi Stephanie,

If you are seriously engaging this practice, and looking at your mind, and questioning the labels and beliefs and stories you lay on top of reality, you will start to doubt things you never doubted before.

Certainly happened to me.

you're right of course, and the same thing happened (and continues to happen) to me; but then what happens? - zen doesn't leave us high and dry. Shunryu Suzuki says:

the purpose of studying buddhism is to to study ourselves and to forget ourselves. When we forget ourselves, we actually are the true activity of the big existence, or reality itself. When we realize this fact, there is no problem whatsoever in this world, and we can enjoy our life without feeling any difficulties. The purpose of our practice is to be aware of this fact.

So I read this as saying, yes, we start by 'realizing' our doubts - literally making them real - in zazen, so they become our reality (not a layer that we've laid somehow on top of something called 'reality') it's a revelation to us of what our labels, beliefs and stories actually are; but that's not the end of the story.

That's going further than Jaana's post so I probably inferred too much from it, so thanks for drawing me up.

gassho,
Monkton

[ghop]

Re: Help

Well, I was wrong to think this isn't the place to bring
this subject up. Turns out it is a great place to do so.
There is so much good advice here. I feel lucky to be
able to get such support. It's just kinda embarrasing
admitting such conflicts. It's like joining a math club
and later having to admit you don't know squat about it.
Jundo, Dosho, Taylor, Hans, Fuken, Stephanie, Ensho,
Cyril, Jaana, Christopher, Rich, Monkton...thank you
so very much. I agree that maybe zazen has just
"revealed" the cracks in what I thought were an honest
faith on my part. And Monkton, odd that you should
bring up the Quakers. I have been looking into them
for some time now. There is a Meeting about twenty
miles from where I live. I have spoken with one of the
members and will be attending soon, just to "test the
waters."

Who you really are - your true self - doesn't give two shits about Buddhism or Christianity.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

gassho
Greg

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Help

How much do you want to wake up, Greg?...The extent to which you insist on holding on to all that stuff is the extent you will stay blocked in this struggle between the part of you that wants to wake up, and the part of you that wants to remain nestled in the cocoon of comforting belief. And if you don't want to wake up... drop the Zen!

I was reading Beck's book "Living Zen" and came across an interesting quote from her. She said (and I am paraphrasing as I don't have the book in front of me) "I don't really care if people leave the practice of Zen. Awareness is the proverbial cat that can't be stuffed back in the bag. Life is zazen and will push you in the direction of reality whether you purposely practice or not. Practicing zen just accelerates the process."

So, if I have understood and not mis-represented what she said, her opinion would seem to be "go ahead and go back to the Baptist thing if that feels right. It may be a necessary part of your learning to be disappointed by that faith. Then you will come back to zen, and be disappointed by that practice. Then you have a chance at awakening."

Beck seems big on loss/disappointment as the only true teacher :wink:

[buddhistmama]

Re: Help

To return to Greg's original question: I think it's important to just give oneself time to figure these things out for oneself through deep, no holds barred inquiry. Joseph Campbell once said "follow your bliss"....just find that bliss and you'll be okay

Gassho,

Hans

Well said, Hans!

[Adam]

Re: Help

There's an old story about W.C. Fields that I think is pretty funny (and also might fit here). When he was in New York for a show, he decided to go to his hotel room to rest before that evenings festivities. A few hours later his manager walked into Fields' room and noticed that he was reading the King James Bible. Knowing that W.C. Fields was a strong atheist, his manager had to ask why he was reading the Bible. Fields' replied, "I'm looking for loopholes."

I believe that you can use Zen regardless of being Christian, Muslim, etc. If you sit zazen and come to some realization through this practice, and it is truth to you, then you can examine your other beliefs to see if those still hold the same truth in your mind. If you continue to zazen and you find that this practice does not fit what you truly believe or what makes sense to you,then get up off the cushion and continue to live. It does not matter what faith you follow; Zen will work. The great thing about Buddhism is that you can use what makes sense to you. Christ is quoted to have similar views to what the Buddha was quoted as saying, so I don't see an issue. We don't know what happens when we die, but we can choose to be happy RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. Just be happy and practice (whether it's zazen or prayer).

Gassho,

Adam

PS - Congrats on the anniversary!

PPS - The Dalai Lama also said, "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness." That is true, too.

[Jundo]

Re: Help

Then you will come back to zen, and be disappointed by that practice. Then you have a chance at awakening."

Beck seems big on loss/disappointment as the only true teacher :wink:

Oh, I have been disappointed by Zen practice every single day, which is never quite how I would have it go or be. In fact, I have been disappointed by life every single day, which is never quite how I would have it be and go.

And that is why I have walked this path of Zen practice for 28 years now, and will every day.

Gassho, J

[Jaana]

Re: Help

Zazen has nothing in it that can cause a lack of faith -- unless that lack of faith was there to begin with, and zazen merely brings it to your mind.

I like that!
gassho,
Monkton

I completely disagree. If you are seriously engaging this practice, and looking at your mind, and questioning the labels and beliefs and stories you lay on top of reality, you will start to doubt things you never doubted before.

Certainly happened to me.

Oh, I did not mean to imply that could not happen. I find it actually pretty likely that taking time to sit by yourself helps you to think about things differently.What I meant to imply is that I do not think that the practice of sitting down and staring a wall can in itself be the cause for how you change. There is nothing mystical about sitting -- say, the Devil does not enter you and make you forget God if you do, nor God reveal yourself to you and tell you The Truth About Everything -- but if change comes, it comes from you/world/reality, with the help of zazen. Just sitting and staring at a wall can make you think about things differently -- but it cannot make you think of things in a particular way, if you know the truth to be different.

(EDITed to add: ok, on a hindsight, I guess it sort of could do that too. Though even then, it is you convincing yourself of something that is not true, with the help of zazen, not zazen being the origin of the belief.)

[Unmon]

Re: Help

greg,

may i ask what your "past issues with all this stuff" might mean specifically? maybe it was expressed and/or addressed here and i completely missed it...but, having been raised in an evangelical christian environment myself, i know that the residues from multiple "issues" can remain for some time. just curious - not trying to pry...

[Hans]

Re: Help

Hi Adam

Just a quick "I disagree" from my corner regarding some of the things you have written. Obviously we can never truly argue with what we "believe", so please don't understand what I am writing the wrong way. I am not trying to say "I am right", rather I would just like to highlight a different perspective.

You wrote:
"I believe that you can use Zen regardless of being Christian, Muslim, etc. ... The great thing about Buddhism is that you can use what makes sense to you.
(...)

Sila (Buddhist ethics), Samadhi, (concentration) and Prajna (wisdom) all have to come together for Zazen to really unfold. No right view without deeply realising the four noble truths either.

I don't doubt that sitting down and entering deep meditative states can lead to great realisations...it just ain't Zazen IMHO.

Buddhism split into dozens of different school precisely because "using what makes sense to you" did not make sense in a communal setting. Once differences in practice and/or theory become too great, it's schism time. If you don't stick to certain precise rules, or get funny ideas about ordaining women and put them into practise...you have a great problem with most of the traditional Theravada establishment. If you don't do your Ngondro preliminary exercises, you are not allowed to receive most of the empowerments and instructions for higher Yoga tantras etc. in the Tibetan traditions. The same would go for Japanese Buddhist traditions in different waysetc., although I agree that certain streams of Buddhism embrace syncretism more than others.

It is true that the different Buddhist traditions do not have a pan-buddhist inquisition in place that would excommunicate loads of people, burn witches etc. (thanks for that!!!). But all Buddhist traditions (right until the time they entered the western industrial world) are/were governed by highly detailed rule-systems. I am really glad that we as westerners have the opportunity to look for what is most fitting...but as a historical tradition Buddhism isn't half as liberal as most of us westerners would want it to be. Now of course we can claim to know that the essence of Buddhism is such and such and doesn't have anything to do with the cumbersome organised religions calling themselves Buddhist.

I know that I am repeating myself, but I will say it again. Zen is a Buddhist tradition. Take the cornerstones of Buddhism out of it and it ain't Zen anymore. It is a finger pointing at something that is beyond notions of religions (and is all of them at the same time). But not all fingers appear the same initially.

Most individuals growing up in a western consumerist society don't like rules that limit their personal freedom in any way. We are all used to shopping for what we want and discarding what we don't want.
Due to Buddhist traditions not being able to enact some kind of social peer pressure in the West, we often feel that that makes it such a freedom loving religious tradition. My own research and my experience of living in Japan tells me otherwise.

PPS - The Dalai Lama also said, "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness." That is true, too.

...as for the Dalai Lama, whom I highly respect btw. ....just google Dorje Shugden controversy and stuff related to CIA covert warfare in Tibet....day to day life is a whole lot nastier than most of the Dalai Lama's coffee table book quotes ( no matter how true they might be on some levels).

May we all sentient beings realise the truth together.

Gassho,

Hans

[Jaana]

Re: Help

I know that I am repeating myself, but I will say it again. Zen is a Buddhist tradition. Take the cornerstones of Buddhism out of it and it ain't Zen anymore.

What are "the cornerstones of Buddhism" as you understand them - I mean, what has someone / some organization to be at minimum to qualify as Buddhist?

What would you call the practice of "just sitting" in the context where someone practices it without interest in other originally Buddhist practices?

[Fuken]

Re: Help

I know that I am repeating myself, but I will say it again. Zen is a Buddhist tradition. Take the cornerstones of Buddhism out of it and it ain't Zen anymore.

What are "the cornerstones of Buddhism" as you understand them - I mean, what has someone / some organization to be at minimum to qualify as Buddhist?

What would you call the practice of "just sitting" in the context where someone practices it without interest in other originally Buddhist practices?

Here you go:

This is a classificaion of the most important categories of Zen, made by the early Chinese Ch'an (Zen) master Kuei-feng Tsung-mi. The notion Zen in this context stands generally for "meditative practice." These are the five types of Zen:

1.) Bonpu Zen
(Japanese, "ordinary unenlightened person");
Bonpu Zen is a type of zazen that is practiced without religious motivation, as, for
example, for the improvement of mental or bodily health.

2.) Gedö Zen
(Japanese, "outside way");
The type of Zen that is religious in character but follows teachings that are outside
the Buddhist teachings. Christian contemplation, for example, would fall into this category.
Also subsumed under gedö Zen are those meditative practices that are pursued purely
for the sake of developing supernatural powers and abilities.

3.) Shöjö Zen
(Japanese, "small vehicle");
A type of Zen that leads to the state of mushinjö, a condition in which all sense perceptions
are cutt off and consciousness discontinued. If one remains in mushinjö until death occurs,
then there is no rebirth and a kind of separation from the cycle of existence (samsära) is
achieved. Since shöjö Zen is directed only toward the attainment of one's own inner peace,
it is regarded by Zen Buddhism, which belongs to Mahäyäna Buddhism, as not in agreement
with the highest teachings of the Buddha. The last two of the five types of Zen, on the other
hand, are considered in agreement with these teachings.

4.) Daijö Zen
(Japanese, "great vehicle");
The central characteristic of daijö Zen is self-realization and the actualization of the "great way"
in everyday life. Since in self-realization the connectedness, indeed, the untiy, of the self
with all beings is experienced, and since the actualization of the "great way" in everyday life
has to do with working for the welfare of all beings, this is a Zen of the Mahäyäna type.

5.) Saijöjö Zen
(Japanese, "supremely excellent vehicle");
In this highest form of Zen practice, the way and path are fused into one. Zazen is understood
here not so much as a means to "attain" enlightenment, but rather as a realization of the
buddha-nature immanent in every being. It is said that this Zen was practiced by all the
buddhas of the past and it is considered as the pinnacle and crown ornament of Buddhist Zen.
This practice, also known as shikantaza, is the Zen particularly fostered by Dögen Zenji.

[Hans]

Re: Help

Hello Jaana,

I am not the pope of Buddhism. And that's a good thing I believe. To me personally however, the three marks of existence (anatta, anicca, dukkha), the four noble truths and the noble eightfold path + dependent origination are key cornerstones (insofar as they form the base from which we make our own discoveries that don't rely on scriptures).

If they weren't, I personally could just as well be practising Advaita Vedanta or ACEM meditation.

Gassho,

Hans

[Jaana]

Re: Help

Hans I wasn't asking for the opinion of the pope of Buddhism, just for yours. I am well-aware you are just one person, don't worry.

Thanks for the terminology, Fuken. So in Japanese it does look like 'Zen' is also used for meditation outside of Buddhist practices? Wonder if adopting the terminology from there would cause less or more confusion than trying to clarify the English every-day outside-of-Buddhism usage of the word...

[Fuken]

Re: Help

Hi Jaana,

Yes, "Zen" is just short for Zazen. Roughly meaning "Seated Meditation."