Help

[Jundo]

Re: Help

Jundo, just for the record, do you think that an acceptance of Anatta is crucial for to right view, or not?

Yes. But the perspective(s) on self/no self are not so simple, especially in the Mahayana. In fact, view little is cut & dried, black/white, yes/no, 'this but not that' in the Mahayana.

Do you think that right view is essential for Zazen to actually be Zazen and not just a great meditation technique?

Yes, right view is essential.

There is no doubt that some folks define the tenets of Christianity and the tenets of Buddhism so that they cannot be harmonized. I think the point that several folks are making here is that the tenets need not be so limiting, can be viewed in ways which find common ground, and can be seen otherwise from both sides. Call it Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya or Father, Holy Ghost and Son ... common ground can be found.

Gassho, Jundo

[Rich]

Re: Help

Hello Rich,

with all due respect, original sin and karmic delusions are two completely different concepts, whether you see it symbolically or not.

Hans

I didn't say karmic delusion, I meant the delusion one has right now is like original sin.

Whether you're looking at the Catholic church's, Martin Luther's or Calvin's take....original sin means we as humans are flawed from the beginning. We are inherently not completely good.

Hans

Yes, flawed from birth just like Buddhists who haven't attained enlightenment or awakening. But the good news was that this original sin could be washed away and you were made in the image of God or Christ or whatever - I'm not a theologian.

Buddhadharma has it the exact opposite way around, there is delusion etc., but we ourselves are pure and perfect Dharmakaya reality as it manifests itself. The bottom of "We" (no matter how provisional a notion of "we" as individuals might be) is inherently pure and good.

My approach to this topic seems to be different from a lot of people's here. And I do not consider this to be pure intellectualising btw. but rather crucial points regarding what does and what does not constitute "right view". Buddhism is designed to "self-destruct",once the other shore is reached. We know that the -ism in Buddhism is just skillful means in a way. Christian and most other monotheist approaches do not work that way. At no point is one to abandon Jesus/Jahveh/Allah etc.


Gassho,

Hans

My point was not to prove that Buddhist and Christian doctrine was the same but to point out there are faith based similarities because we all have the same mind.

/Rich

[Stephanie]

Re: Help

I have no doubt that people can find good things in the Christian religion. The basic teachings of Jesus are pretty solid, and many of his sayings come up in my life from time to time like koans. The Christian Church has done and continues to do good things, just as it has done and continues to do bad things. Local churches often support social aid programs and can be especially vital in areas where there is not as much government support for people suffering from homelessness and poverty. AA and NA meetings take place in church basements everywhere. People find solace, support, and community at church.

The problem is when you get to the doctrines and dogmas. I love the aesthetics of the Episcopal Church services, but the most recent one I went to, about a year ago at my grandmother's funeral, was a bit of a disappointment, as the dogma made it impossible for me to fully appreciate the beautiful aesthetics and ritual. I love the sound of the language and some of those prayers are beautiful poetry, but when it comes to things like reciting the Nicene Creed... you'd have to do a lot of intellectual gyration to rectify those sort of dogmas with a Zen practice, IMO.

And that is exactly the problem... for most people I've known who are Christian, their religion is mainly about what they believe. And those beliefs are based on tradition and fear and formed blindly. My maternal aunt is a wonderful woman, kind and wise and funny, and a die-hard Baptist. Her religion supports her in her natural kindness, and helps her not be as troubled by life events... but a lot of the comfort comes from belief in "being saved" and "going to Heaven." And being saved and going to Heaven depends not on works, or practice, but in accepting a very particular belief system. A "meme," as Susan Blackmore might put it.

I have no mission to strip people on the street of their comforting beliefs. But my Zen practice is all about stripping me of mine. My faith, as a Zen Buddhist, is that life is ultimately better without beliefs, when I don't put so much faith and energy into my ideas and philosophies and suppositions about how things work and what will happen in the future and when I die. I'm not going to go around proselytizing that, but in my own zendo, my own sangha, I see no place for dogmas and belief systems, and I believe one of our vital roles as sangha members is to challenge one another's beloved beliefs and ideas. In the workaday world, I am respectful of people's different beliefs and practices, but in the zendo I hold Christian dogma in no reverence and see it as no different than any of the other beliefs we cling to, like "this new job is going to make me happy." IMO, all need to be under the gun.

[Nick B]

Re: Help

Please consider that you may also be free of all the shackles that the human mind is capable of creating and this is also a conscious choice [emphasis added]- a kind of will to the truth.
/Rich

Interesting, when one makes the choice to let go of all dwelling places, the choice is the first thing to go, then there is just non-dwelling.

Those with non-dwelling minds have Buddha minds or so says Hui Hai.

This non-dwelling leads to Nirvikalpa Samadhi A.K.A. Nirvana, the question then arises for us Mahayana folk who take the road of the Bodhisattva, How far out of the mind stream do we go?

At what point do we re-enter the mind stream, what do we take up, what do we let go by, what do we cultivate, what do we abandon?

What is to be our guide, how we feel in the moment or the precepts and the bodhisattva ideal?

There is cultivation and abandoning other wise our practice would be no different than just letting Samsara take us where ever it happened to go.

Truly it comes down to our choices and being in a Soto Zen Buddhist Sangha it raises the question of what choices are in harmony with S.Z.B.?

[Rich]

Re: Help

I have no mission to strip people on the street of their comforting beliefs. But my Zen practice is all about stripping me of mine. My faith, as a Zen Buddhist, is that life is ultimately better without beliefs, when I don't put so much faith and energy into my ideas and philosophies and suppositions about how things work and what will happen in the future and when I die. I'm not going to go around proselytizing that, but in my own zendo, my own sangha, I see no place for dogmas and belief systems, and I believe one of our vital roles as sangha members is to challenge one another's beloved beliefs and ideas. In the workaday world, I am respectful of people's different beliefs and practices, but in the zendo I hold Christian dogma in no reverence and see it as no different than any of the other beliefs we cling to, like "this new job is going to make me happy." IMO, all need to be under the gun.

is it the attachment to your beliefs that is a problem. if you have zen beliefs and philosophies that motivate you to meditate but you are able to let them go when meditating then they would be no hindrance (zenspeak) or you would be just doing it. In general I agree with you that too much thinking and believing is unecessary and even dangerous but buddhists and christians are both very good at it

Please consider that you may also be free of all the shackles that the human mind is capable of creating and this is also a conscious choice [emphasis added]- a kind of will to the truth.
/Rich

Interesting, when one makes the choice to let go of all dwelling places, the choice is the first thing to go, then there is just non-dwelling.

Those with non-dwelling minds have Buddha minds or so says Hui Hai.

This non-dwelling leads to Nirvikalpa Samadhi A.K.A. Nirvana, the question then arises for us Mahayana folk who take the road of the Bodhisattva, How far out of the mind stream do we go?

At what point do we re-enter the mind stream, what do we take up, what do we let go by, what do we cultivate, what do we abandon?

What is to be our guide, how we feel in the moment or the precepts and the bodhisattva ideal?

There is cultivation and abandoning other wise our practice would be no different than just letting Samsara take us where ever it happened to go.

Truly it comes down to our choices and being in a Soto Zen Buddhist Sangha it raises the question of what choices are in harmony with S.Z.B.?

I think the main choice is shikantaza but Jundo seems to accept other zen flavors as valid even tho not taught here. I think we always abandon thinking cause it just gets in the way of doing but that does not mean thinking is not useful and valid, it just means we have to be able to put it down.

/Rich

[Nick B]

Re: Help

I think we always abandon thinking cause it just gets in the way of doing but that does not mean thinking is not useful and valid, it just means we have to be able to put it down.

/Rich

I agree.