Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

[Jundo]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I don't agree with Brad.

Because zen can be taught by both in monastery or on the net.

But, to really understand the way, one can't only rely on zen master in monastery or net.

We must do it by our self. Depend on our self, even though there is no self.

Gassho, Mujo. =))

Shui Di ... he comes, he hits the target, he goes ...

[Jinho]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

other people say he is wrong.

prove it.

Thank you for your most eloquent answer

gassho,
Jinho

[Jinho]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

If the opportunity arose to go sit with Brad / any one for that matter, here in my home town i would, no hesitation.
Gassho
Shohei - my pompous jack-assery added in print! (loved that line btw)

Hi SHohei,

I certainly would not go sit with Brad since everything I have read that he has written has shown him as an abusive deluded person. Perhaps he isn't but I can only go by what I have read and that it was his choice to post what he has posted (on his website).

gassho,
Jinho

[Jinho]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Brad himself warned about the dangers studying and practicing without a teacher in “Sit Down and Shut Up.” Luckily my teacher and sangha are only a wireless connection away.

I have seen the warning about studying without a teacher floating around the Net, but no one ever says why it's dangerous. What is it that we should be wary of? I've always found it rather curious that the same people who are so adamant that we do not practice alone are silent on what exactly we need to guard against. It doesn't make sense.

I remember when I first joined another online Buddhist community and was reading about the necessity of a teacher. I posed the question - What do you do with a teacher? Not one person answered me. It really doesn't seem like a hard question. In fact, with such importance placed on having a teacher, it should be quite easy.

I guess I'm missing something, but it's difficult to say, because no one ever wants to talk about it. It makes Zen appear quite clique-ish.

Seona

Hi Seona,

(Forgive me all for posting this without reading the rest of the comments).
I may be one of the only people on the list who has practiced with a group and teacher who are physically in the same place. For several years I practiced with a Kwan Um zen center and the wonderful teacher Jeff Kitsis (Bon Soeng).

As for the continual warnings, the thing they are warning about, IMHO, is that one might mistake a momentary mystical experience (however meaningful it might be) for enlightenment. For me, a firm hold and constant reminder of the second vow "delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them" is central to my life. That's it, nothing obscure about the "warnings". But a continually inquiring mind, as most people have here at Treeleaf, will keep one just ok.

Also, as to what you do with a teacher, you go to see the teacher and questions are asked (both ways) and hopefully are enriched by the teacher's understanding and that the teacher's understanding is useful to the student).

gassho,
rowan/Jinho

[Jinho]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I don't agree with Brad.

Because zen can be taught by both in monastery or on the net.

But, to really understand the way, one can't only rely on zen master in monastery or net.

We must do it by our self. Depend on our self, even though there is no self.

Gassho, Mujo. =))

Shui Di ... he comes, he hits the target, he goes ...

You are so on the mark!

many gassho,
rowan/Jinho

[Eika]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/11/13/online.church.services/index.html

Different tradition, similar issues . . .

Peace,
Eika

[Jinho]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Greetings all!

(Speaking as one who has sat at a bricks&mortar zen center for several years) What one gets at Treeleaf AND NOWHERE ELSE is an incredible depth of discussion and examination of zen buddhism and life in general. And there is also a mutual tremendous caring and support which is absent at many sanghas. But it is the depth of examination of everything that sets Treeleaf apart and is unique to Treeleaf. And this is totally due to the discussion being on-line (in that we can re-read and examine and post, and discuss over and over).

AND ANOTHER THING, there is an international aspect to the sangha which cannot be found in any other sangha.

Much gratitude to, and admiration for, Jundo for going against 1500 years of zen teaching tradition in setting up Treeleaf.

And yet there is a precedent for "online" in a sense, many teachers (in medieval China) had students who were far away and the teacher and student would correspond.

As for teaching - I disagree that there is nothing to teach, rather that there is a teaching but it cannot be taught. To offer "dead words" in explanation (hopefully to avoid misunderstanding) - it is merely the obvious phenomena that everyone must experience the Dharma for themself. But learning about someone else's understanding can be very useful and expanding.

gassho,
rowan/Jinho

[Shohei]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

If the opportunity arose to go sit with Brad / any one for that matter, here in my home town i would, no hesitation.
Gassho
Shohei - my pompous jack-assery added in print! (loved that line btw)

Hi SHohei,

I certainly would not go sit with Brad since everything I have read that he has written has shown him as an abusive deluded person. Perhaps he isn't but I can only go by what I have read and that it was his choice to post what he has posted (on his website).

gassho,
Jinho

Thats cool -

i would simply to experience a sitting in a group, with "real" people so i can see if I would "feel" the difference. Its like saying a mac is better than a windows box . if I had never tried the other then how could I draw a fair comparison. Regardless I think I should be willing to sit with someone even if I find Them disagreeable sometimes...hell im not a big fan of Me by times but i still have to sit with me - no shots at anyone here im saying we all have disagreeable qualities by times - no?

I know you have had much more sitting experience than me and with groups etc. Im not too sure about stuff myself so I should take that step out to see thats all.

oh and fwiw I sat with some folks here at work for a few weeks but they all disappeared - maybe lunchtime was a tough time to do it...maybe i had a nose whistle...
.

Oh and yes Mujo is (par for the course!) spot on!

Deep bows to all
Shohei

[Jinho]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

HI Dirk,

(regarding sitting with Brad)

Again I have been unclear! I will, of course, happily sit with anyone. I just may not stay for the teisho.

SItting with other people, especially people who have been sitting a long time and have a strict precedent of stillness, is a very intense experience for me, the stillness itself is very powerful, a very real presence in the room.

As for people leaving at your noon sitting, of course it is not you (just to state the obvious), everybody has their own priorities and requirements in their lives.

gassho,
rowan

[kfrance0]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I certainly would not go sit with Brad since everything I have read that he has written has shown him as an abusive deluded person. Perhaps he isn't but I can only go by what I have read and that it was his choice to post what he has posted (on his website).

gassho,
Jinho

Watching his videos on youtube, I have to say that he comes across as much rougher and more ascerbic in his writing than he does when he's speaking...at least, on those occasions. I've never met him, so I can't say anything more than that.

[bayamo]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I certainly would not go sit with Brad since everything I have read that he has written has shown him as an abusive deluded person. Perhaps he isn't but I can only go by what I have read and that it was his choice to post what he has posted (on his website).

gassho,
Jinho

Watching his videos on youtube, I have to say that he comes across as much rougher and more ascerbic in his writing than he does when he's speaking...at least, on those occasions. I've never met him, so I can't say anything more than that.

i have spoken with people online who have heard him speak, and they all make a similar comment..
gassho

[Jundo]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I certainly would not go sit with Brad since everything I have read that he has written has shown him as an abusive deluded person. Perhaps he isn't but I can only go by what I have read and that it was his choice to post what he has posted (on his website).

gassho,
Jinho

Watching his videos on youtube, I have to say that he comes across as much rougher and more ascerbic in his writing than he does when he's speaking...at least, on those occasions. I've never met him, so I can't say anything more than that.

i have spoken with people online who have heard him speak, and they all make a similar comment..
gassho

Yes, it is true. He is a bit of a pussycat who writes like a tiger. He is a good, kind, warm person, and someone who gives his whole heart to Buddhism and teaching. Gassho, J

[Keishin]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Some of you (Jundo and Chugai) have met Brad, sat with Brad, or heard him speak in person.

I sit at the Hill Street Center on Saturdays. I have been sitting there with Brad for a little over 2 1/2 years now.

My gratitude and appreciation of Brad as a teacher has as a foundation the many years I have sat with other teachers. At age 30 I was given my first 'zen' book and I have been sitting about 24-25 years now with a couple of years off here, another year off there due to moving, trying to find another zen center to go to--(there are lots, but where/how to find them? pre-internet looking took a while sometimes).

I say all this not to crow about the length of time I've been sitting (hell, anyone can do it, all you have to do is start). I say it because I will always be sitting, there simply really is nothing else I can do. This is it for me.

So here I am: grateful to all my teachers. And to all teachers, even teachers I wouldn't want to have as my teacher. I am even grateful to people who have been exposed as not being the teacher they presented themself to be.
And why would I be grateful to a liar? those who take time and effort to establish a regular sitting schedule and maintain a space available to all where others so inclined may have the opportunity to dip their big toe in zazen: this is no small thing. This is everything: entry. What follows from that, follows from that and goes on without end ceaselessly but we have to start somewhere. Each one of us here has had a 'start' somewhere. (And maybe Treeleaf is your start!) Leaving where we got our start (in zazen practice) isn't stopping, it is to continue somewhere else. Not sitting for a while isn't never sitting zazen again, it is just a longer period of time between sits. (I am not giving a 'pass' to liars: the good and harm in all actions is inextricably linked)--

So due to misfortune of injuries and surgeries and inability to drive a neighbor directed me to a zen center I could walk to--all these years living here and didn't even know about it! And one thing led to another and I found myself sitting on Saturdays with Brad Warner.

I had never heard of Brad before I started sitting with him, had never read any of his books (he had one out and the second had just been accepted). I had never read a blog site ever, let alone left a comment on one. But I had been sitting for years...
Believe me, if in any way something about Brad had ever seemed to be amiss or lackluster or fare deficient in any of the essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals, or smacked of being all sound sans substance I would know and I wouldn't stay (time is too precious and I am too old for bullshit)--and I don't tolerate that which falls short for any extended period of time.
When you sit at a center/with a sangha for a while if there is no water there your thirst will find a way to find it. And living in a huge multi-international urban setting there are lots of other places to go; heaps of 'em! Thirst and you will find.

Over my years of sitting I have sat with different groups, but I didn't flit from teacher to teacher (unless a three year period of time is considered a 'flit') and I never sought out popularized famous zen stars to sit with--not so much for them, because I liked the talks I'd heard, but more for the hub bub of groupies around them. There was a time I used to listen to a radio program which broadcast a wide array of famous zen folks and other teachers and I would listen to talks: J. Krishnamurti, Pema Chodron, Jack Kornfield, Ticht Nat Han,HH Dalai Lama, and that famous 'philosophical entertainer', Alan Watts, and the likes. I did that for several years, needing to hear as much as I could in those days--I like good stories, and a lot of zen teachers tell good stories. I did attend some lectures in person--hugely crowded events, it was nice to match the voice I'd heard with the presence of a live person, but I did not care for the crowd scene.
The first month or so I visited Treeleaf (I found it through a link through Nishijima's blog, through Brad's blog) I watched the talks Jundo would give before sitting here, but then I stopped watching and coming to the forums was plenty for me. Having a teacher already, I considered myself to be a guest member here. A registered member of the forum and a guest in someone else's sangha.
Over time in my practice the general trend has been to go for less and less.
I am not saying less is better, just that my needs, my habits, that which I surround myself with--all these things are in flux and change: always have been, always will be. I received very good training at three different zen centers/sangha's I sat with: served as ino, as jikido, as tenzo. This training ultimately is training to see: situation, relationship and function. (Thanks Steve!, guest speaker from Dharma Zen Center (Kuan Um School) clearing up a question for me and giving names for these three 'ingredients').
At every point in time my 'readiness' met the right teacher. And yes, even teachers I have left for a time (in one case several years) and returned to. (When you leave a teacher you don't get away from anyone, or anything: whatever needs to get worked out, gets worked out. I don't want to give the impression leaving is 'wrong' or 'cowardly.' Leaving may actually be the most thorough, clean, expedient way to work something out.)


So now Brad is my teacher. I have yet to meet anyone more humble.

And Brad appears to be an inkblot: anyone is welcome to interpret him according to their own unconscious content. But then isn't that true of each of us when we get blind sided by others' strong emotional reactions? Aren't we their inkblot? and don't we in turn do this with others, with everything to greater and lessor extent?
these emotions, and this mind; these thoughts and this feeling--reminds me of the two clowns who lock arms and legs and form one yin/yang clown wheel and roll all over the stage, each pulling the other forward

I have never aspired to be a zen teacher when I grow up. I do not plan to shave my head (hell, for the majority of my life I haven't shaved any hair on the rest of my body, why would I want to go and shave my head?) I know better than to say never--I did take up less rustic ways in the company of my sweetheart--but with his passing my chances of becoming a 'civilized' lady are slim to none. All I wanted from zen was a way to take life straight up, no chaser.

dharma/'my' daily life
this is what exposure to all my teachers points me to, dharma/daily life, dharma/everyday life, nothing special. Nothing special, just the everyday ordinary mystery of existence itself.

Brad is nothing special through and through and for that I owe no end of gratitude, I am fortunate

There is a lot of dharma drama about teachers. Teachers are useful. Like tools in a box. Like all tools, take care of them, and handle them carefully: if you don't use a tool properly you could damage it or hurt yourself.

[disastermouse]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Some tools are defective. Although I would never describe Brad that way, I would describe Mr. Graham that way.

I sat with Brad and Co. a couple of times. He is as described - meek, affable, and friendly. I just think that he makes pronouncements and then must defend them regardless of how well thought out they were originally.

Chet

[bayamo]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Keishin , thanks for that post, very informative, and your approach is most helpful..
gassho