Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

[disastermouse]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Odd, no? Sometimes what matters is the connection, not how it's made.

Gassho

Martin

It is odd. It's downright counterintuitive.

I feel that all of you here, especially the regulars, know me much better from a dharma perspective than any other group with which I've been.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I feel that all of you here, especially the regulars, know me much better from a dharma perspective than any other group with which I've been.

Chet

Speaking for me, know and like.

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I'm hardly on here but I think disaster mouse produces a lot of gems. I also love his stache, and would totally grow one if I wasn't genetically cursed with this "urban amish" type of beard.

[disastermouse]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I feel that all of you here, especially the regulars, know me much better from a dharma perspective than any other group with which I've been.

Chet

Speaking for me, know and like.

Ah shucks, Jundo!

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I'm hardly on here but I think disaster mouse produces a lot of gems. I also love his stache, and would totally grow one if I wasn't genetically cursed with this "urban amish" type of beard.

I shaved it about a month ago

My new Avatar is what I look like as of five minutes ago...

Chet

[Yellow Pine]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Having just arrived...I find this thread very relevant. Some disclosure: haven't read the book as the cover's aggression pushed me away....I live 30 mins from the Great Vow Monastery & am not involved....I've been sitting since the early seventies with no teacher or guidance....and NOW @ 61 I have a strong desire and need for a teacher to deepen my practice.

Treeleaf as an entire context...Jundo, the site, the forums, sangha, my laptop, everything here is my teacher now....and most probably it is a new and different type of teaching for the 21st century....I suspect if one Googles

online teaching

, one will find quite a bit of research going on....

[Keishin]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Ah,

you know the old adage: don't judge a book by its cover!

[Stephanie]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

There are things you can't do on the 'Net, and certain learning experiences that happen in "flesh and blood" sanghas that can't happen on the 'Net. For one, it's easier to control one's presentation on the Internet, so one doesn't come up against one's rough edges as often as one does in dealing with the inescapable challenges and confrontations of sharing the same physical space with people. You can click away from the posts by the annoying person you can't stand or log off when you've had enough.

All that said, there are things you can do on the 'Net that you can't do elsewhere. Discussions about intimate issues that might never occur with one's sangha members in the flesh easily and naturally arise on the Internet where distance evokes comfort and safety even with the most tender issues. Disembodied communication cuts out some of the basic animal responses to other humans that get in the way of direct knowing of the other.

In other words, just because it's different, and some things are lost in the transition from physical space to the virtual aethyrs doesn't mean that nothing is gained. Buddhists, who study and practice the arts of emptiness on a regular basis, should be able to appreciate the virtues of communicating through the virtual aethyrs! It brings freedom. The Dharma can be taught anywhere. How could anyone not know this?

My biggest concern about the Internet as a Dharma vehicle is that I personally think it is easier to hide behind an idealized representation of oneself online than it is in fleshspace. This can forestall some growth experiences that need to occur to smash through certain delusions we accumulate over time. It's a lot easier to think your mental sandcastles are more substantial when you can beautifully portray them with measured phrasing in the written word rather than hear the crickets as you garble your enunciation of what you thought was going to be a very deep thought...

[Eika]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

In other words, just because it's different, and some things are lost in the transition from physical space to the virtual aethyrs doesn't mean that nothing is gained. Buddhists, who study and practice the arts of emptiness on a regular basis, should be able to appreciate the virtues of communicating through the virtual aethyrs! It brings freedom. The Dharma can be taught anywhere. How could anyone not know this?

My biggest concern about the Internet as a Dharma vehicle is that I personally think it is easier to hide behind an idealized representation of oneself online than it is in fleshspace.

I like these two points, Stephanie. BTW, good to see/hear/read you back here!

There are trade-offs, to be sure, and I would never suggest that my opinion is anything other than speculation, because this is an emergent field. I think there are real pitfalls to both methods, and real benefits to both methods. Just because one teacher cannot conceive of teaching using the internet does not mean that others can't. Everyone's vision is limited. I am here because Jundo's teachings resonate with me AND because there is no Zen teacher within a 3-hour drive of my house . . . my wife and I have full-time jobs and we have three small kids, so, this is about as "real" as Zen can get for me at this point in my life. That being said, I don't mean to imply that Treeleaf is a "lesser" experience than "realspace" zendos. It does what it does. It should be evaluated by how "helpful and healthful" it is in the lives of the practitioners who come here. If it is, then it is real for them; if it isn't, then it should be abandoned. But, just as no one brick & mortar zendo is right for student or teacher, Treeleaf is not for everyone. Some can't make it work for them. OK, cool.
The internet has some disadvantages, but so does face-to-face "groupthink."

I would be interested in hearing from people who are "leafers" who do have zendos near them and why they choose this over those centers.

Welcome back, Stephanie. I hope all is well with you and that you will hang around.

Peace,
Eika

[Taigu]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Hi Stephanie,

Very nice and sensitive post. You raise very interesting issues. The ease with which people would open and share intimacy for instance or the easy way we can avoid unpleasant posts. Although one might say that blogging and posting can lead to a very intense feeling of frustration too and sometimes fuel arguments and fierce debates.You may have a look at my last vid (simplicity please) and understand that giving my best profile is far from being a priority; as I met Jundo in the flesh I could see with my naked eyes that the guy what really as I could perceive him on the screen of my computer. Of course, menju, meeting face to face, adds different layers to the experience but does not contradict the virtual-real first glance.

gassho


Taigu

[Rich]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

My biggest concern about the Internet as a Dharma vehicle is that I personally think it is easier to hide behind an idealized representation of oneself online than it is in fleshspace. This can forestall some growth experiences that need to occur to smash through certain delusions we accumulate over time. It's a lot easier to think your mental sandcastles are more substantial when you can beautifully portray them with measured phrasing in the written word rather than hear the crickets as you garble your enunciation of what you thought was going to be a very deep thought...

Sometimes when I write here it just happens very spontaneously (usually when I identify with someone's feelings and situation and want to offer support and help by sharing my experience) but sometimes I think about what I am going to write because I'm not always clear about what I want to express and don't want to appear stupid or worse. When I am with the zen group, its mostly small fun talk related to what's happening in the moment or communicating basic info. So to get to your point, I think we all have a persona or 'idealized representation of oneself' that we hide behind and seeing thru that and letting it go is the practice itself whether its online or offline. There was a zen master that answered every question by just raising his finger.
/Rich

[Stephanie]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I think people present pretty honestly here, which is what makes it a refreshing space and one major reason I was drawn back. Some people are a bit "nicey nice" here but the same is true in analog zendos. (Not that I'm saying being nice is a bad thing, I just have a preference--oh, those pesky things!--for a slightly sharper, rougher aesthetic. I love listening to guys talk smack to one another in Staten Island-ese, for example. Anyway...

This may be surprising from someone as verbose as me, but I have a growing appreciation for nonverbal communication. I don't know by what mechanism we pick up on messages or feelings from others just by sitting near them--sometimes one does not even have to look to get a "vibe"--and of course that's somewhat lost on a virtual zendo. But I think it's nicely made up for by the ability to express oneself with a link to a poem, song, or image; sometimes the result is even more poetic and subtle than "realspace" nonverbal communication. There are a lot of ways to communicate online other than just blocks of prose.

The question of the ability to teach Zen on the 'Net? There may be some subtle polishing of personality that happens in 'realspace' zendos that's harder to realize online, but when it comes down to being able to direct people to the truth, to point them to their own minds and subjective experience--that is certainly possible through media other than geographical proximity. Chet has helped adeptly guide me past some stuck places just via phone and online contact. I feel closer to the truth than ever and it certainly didn't require or come about by sitting in the same room as a Zen teacher (though the interviews I'm doing regularly with a teacher in 'realspace' are certainly helpful too).

The Way cannot be realized online but that is because the Way is not realized in any particular location or medium. It's not realized "in New Jersey" or "in a zendo by the sea" either. It's an inward turning, which can be coaxed through online contact, face-to-face contact, or any number of ways.

[Dosho]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I would be interested in hearing from people who are "leafers" who do have zendos near them and why they choose this over those centers.

Hey Eika (and welcome back Stephanie!),

I do have a zendo near me and quite a well known one in the Rochester Zen Center (about 20 minutes from my house). There is also the Springwater Center (about an hour away) and although it is not affliated with any lineage, nearly all the teachers are former Zen folks (from RZC). When I came to Treeleaf I had a 3 year old son(now 4) that I stay at home with and we added another about 3 months ago, so even getting to RZC would be difficult. However, before we had our kids I contemplated going there and never did, even for the tour. Like many westerners I assumed the type of zen taught there was representative of zen in general and after coming here was quite happy to learn that many of things I didn't care for at RZC were not part of the Soto tradition.

I do ask myself if I will visit RZC after both the kids are in school and have wondered if I avoid the "bricks and mortar" aspects. Like Stephine suggests, perhaps I hide behind the relative anonimity we have here at Treeleaf and use it as a haven from a "real" zendo. But I have always been someone who likes to delve into issues like we do here that I very much doubt takes place at RZC. I suppose I'll find out in a few years, but for my current circumstances I believe Treeleaf is where I belong.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Shui_Di]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I don't agree with Brad.

Because zen can be taught by both in monastery or on the net.

But, to really understand the way, one can't only rely on zen master in monastery or net.

We must do it by our self. Depend on our self, even though there is no self.

Gassho, Mujo. =))

[chicanobudista]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Though I wish he would honestly come out and say that he does things that he doesn't do. He used to say he never ever read the comments sections. but he did. Then he would say he did read comments once in a while, but it never bother him enough to intervene....but it did. And on and on until he closed off the comments sections. I do see he likes to visit this place.