Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

[Seona]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Brad himself warned about the dangers studying and practicing without a teacher in “Sit Down and Shut Up.” Luckily my teacher and sangha are only a wireless connection away.

I have seen the warning about studying without a teacher floating around the Net, but no one ever says why it's dangerous. What is it that we should be wary of? I've always found it rather curious that the same people who are so adamant that we do not practice alone are silent on what exactly we need to guard against. It doesn't make sense.

I remember when I first joined another online Buddhist community and was reading about the necessity of a teacher. I posed the question - What do you do with a teacher? Not one person answered me. It really doesn't seem like a hard question. In fact, with such importance placed on having a teacher, it should be quite easy.

I guess I'm missing something, but it's difficult to say, because no one ever wants to talk about it. It makes Zen appear quite clique-ish.

Seona

[Shohei]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

For Brad, in his opinion, you cannot teach zen on the net. Thats his opinion and he is welcome to it. I would agree with some things, sure. Regardless "Zen" isnt only happening when a teacher meets their student (s). Also regardless of how that teacher and student communicate. The discussion is pointless on this subject. as its all sensations we have that are muddled by our own limited experience of them. I say online is good -someone else says different. we are saying good and bad, right /wrong on ideas that explicitly say to let go of that thinking - then pick it up again... if someone says teaching zen on the net is not possible then for them this is true off we go on our marry way down our path. If DSI says 100% the same thing .... off we go on our marry way... Some folks are convinced that we will all burn in a firey hell too...what are you going to do... argue with them(not trying to draw some comparison of brad or dsi to the last example either..just using a more extreme example and one that i have had direct experience with)

Anywho, I do not need anyone to tell me what does, or does not work for "Me". Guidance is always welcome. Heeding it is still up to me. and I will learn(well i hope i learn my lessons ).

If the opportunity arose to go sit with Brad / any one for that matter, here in my home town i would, no hesitation. Since Zen buddhism is scarce in these parts i do what i can with what i have. simple. and what i "get" is invaluable!

... my way your - way anything goes tonight!

Gassho
Shohei - my pompous jack-assery added in print! (loved that line btw)

[Shonin]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Seona, there were some recent specific warnings in another thread here recently. But it's an irritating read at best. LOL

I can't comment too muchon it myself, but basically the teacher is the voice of experience. It is their job to essentially guide you in a certain direction. There's traps and pitfalls. Some realizations may cause us to come to different conclusions. Or form different more selfish interpretations of much of the Dharma.

Take for instance the precept of not stealing. If it is all us why not take it? It's us! But that's not really the right way to look at it as you can tell from the writings and discussions in the Precepts study section.

One can come to the conclusion that they are the universe and everything in it. Everything in the universe is them. But with the guiding hand we understand that the statement " I am the Universe" is really clinging to a self that doesn't actually exist and can lead to arrogance and actually do more harm than good.

Books aren't so interactive as a teacher. You can't ask the book questions and get responses or discuss something on many deeper levels.

A teacher can see some of the patterns of misunderstanding as they crop up and encourage one in a different fashion. Help keep the foundation solid and pure and let that slowly be built upon as opposed to "wrong views" building upon each other.

But that's just my view.

As for Brad, he can think how he likes. For me, the experience has been different from what he says is possible. So to each their own.*shrugs*

Dave _/_

[Imsu]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Brad himself warned about the dangers studying and practicing without a teacher in “Sit Down and Shut Up.” Luckily my teacher and sangha are only a wireless connection away.

I have seen the warning about studying without a teacher floating around the Net, but no one ever says why it's dangerous. What is it that we should be wary of? I've always found it rather curious that the same people who are so adamant that we do not practice alone are silent on what exactly we need to guard against. It doesn't make sense.

I personally do kind of see the point of having a teacher. If you are to have some kind of enlightenment moment, I could see someone with out a teacher getting carried away with it and traveling down all kinds of unhealthy paths. Even beginning to see yourself as some kind of god figure. I see this a lot with my students who start frequently using emotional memory as an acting technique. One might have great experience with one character, but then start playing in all kinds of unhealthy emotional gymnastics to achieve the same effect. I will agree that the guru that says we absolutely cannot study on our own is equally as dangerous, but as we do we ourselves need to make sure that we have our anchors in place, and to seek out a community that will not let us get carried away.
Imsu

[Hoko]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

It really hurts me to see people in this sangha so bothered by Ven. Warner's comments.
We can all be attached to our views, even a Zen teacher.
I also recognize that Brad's comments are particularly painful to people who were initially inspired to take up Zen practice from his books.

So I'm going to take a HUGE left turn at Albuquerque and go way off subject here in a brief attempt to make everyone feel a little better.
Brad uses basketball as his analogy for Zen practice but is that truly appropriate?
I'm going to say Zen Buddhism is a lot more like poker.
Poker is a skill based game with luck inextricably fused in. Just like life.

Nobody here knows this, but I'm actually a pretty good poker player. I learned in college and played my fair share of games.
Won a lot, lost a lot too...
Now, in the last 10 years or so there has been an explosion of interest in Texas Hold 'Em poker and numerous on line gaming halls have opened.
Initially this took a lot of criticism from the pros.
They said you couldn't read your opponent's face on line, you couldn't look for "tells" on line and there was no way; NO WAY anyone could ever beat the "real deal" by learning to play poker on line.

Well guess what?
Some of the most recent and most skilled winners of the World Series of Poker started off as on line players.
Greg Raymer and Chris Moneymaker for example.
In fact, nowadays it's pretty routine for people to have to pre-qualify for tournaments by winning an on line tournament first.
On of the old greats, Doyle Brunson did a HUGE 180 on his opinion of on-line poker rooms!
Now he runs "Doyle's Room", an on line poker service. Interesting change of heart, eh?

So please don't regret your participation in Treeleaf. I know I certainly don't.

Let me leave you with this quote from Confucius:

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it”

Gassho,
-K2

[disastermouse]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Seona, there were some recent specific warnings in another thread here recently. But it's an irritating read at best. LOL

I can't comment too muchon it myself, but basically the teacher is the voice of experience. It is their job to essentially guide you in a certain direction. There's traps and pitfalls. Some realizations may cause us to come to different conclusions. Or form different more selfish interpretations of much of the Dharma.

Take for instance the precept of not stealing. If it is all us why not take it? It's us! But that's not really the right way to look at it as you can tell from the writings and discussions in the Precepts study section.

This could only come about via either intellectualization without realization or realization corrupted by rationalization after the fact...typically spaced out in time.

One can come to the conclusion that they are the universe and everything in it. Everything in the universe is them. But with the guiding hand we understand that the statement " I am the Universe" is really clinging to a self that doesn't actually exist and can lead to arrogance and actually do more harm than good.

Nah...not so much. People talk a big talk about this sort of thing, but I can't imagine it ever happening. You have to understand that the realization doesn't just destroy the boundaries between self and other, it also destroys motivations based on self and other. The profound practical joke that is and has been one's own stupidity at not realizing something so blindingly obvious - that was the primary 'color' of my own experience. 'Spirituality in service of ego' comes back in all the mundane ways...trying to 'recapture' the realization (very profound stupidity there), or thinking it was some 'state' other than the only 'state' that ever really exists - which is the one in which you are right now.

Books aren't so interactive as a teacher. You can't ask the book questions and get responses or discuss something on many deeper levels.

Discussion doesn't help. It really doesn't. They don't call it the 'gateless gate' for nothin'.



Chet

[Rich]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

I am happy that Brad turned the comments off. That place had become too much negative, angry and hateful which is just the opposite of Buddhist action of love, kindness and compassion. Part of the reason was that Brad did not accept responsibility to lead and teach in his own comments community. It went so far negative that he had to dissassociate from it. I think you can teach Zen anywhere, anytime. The whole notion of time and space is just a delusion. I also believe that face to face contact between a student and teacher is important. Jundo is trying to provide that as best he can. The bottom line is you do the best you can with what you have. So its not a matter of you can't teach Zen on the net or you can only teach Zen face to face in person, it's both, it's everything, so just keep trying, sitting and learning.
/Rich

[Jundo]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Hi All,

I am going to make a very "small" comment on this topic ... (actually, it is a little longer than I thought when I started. This topic is close to my heart) ...

I have seen the warning about studying without a teacher floating around the Net, but no one ever says why it's dangerous. What is it that we should be wary of?

I believe that an experienced guide is necessary for about the same reasons that one would not take a hike in wild mountains without a guide, or teach oneself to sail the ocean without some experienced words of advice. Without such, there is a very good chance that one will end up lost in the bush, or crashed onto the reefs and rocks in a storm.

Zazen is a formless practice, without goal ... but that does not mean it can take any form, or head in any direction. Zazen is a clay, and without guiding hands and molding ... the Buddha's philosophy and insights, the guidance of an experienced teacher ... there is a good chance that the clay will crack on baking, or fail to reach its full potential.

All a "Zen teacher" is, in my opinion, is a teacher ... like any teacher ... a voice of experience and learning (and un-learning, in the case of Zen practice ) who can help keep the student in a healthy direction. We have some music teachers in this Sangha, guiding music students through hours of practicing ... and it is much the same. In fact, it is not the "teacher" so much as the total "Sangha" that does the teaching, each supporting each other and guiding each other (the other, just oneself).

Now, the "teacher" or the "Sangha" cannot sit one second of Zazen for you. You have to do all the heavy lifting for yourself ... your "self" sitting and wrestling with its "self" alone. All the teacher/Sangha can offer is a gentle hand of guidance. That has always been true since this Buddhist Way first began ... whether in a monastery with thousands of others, as a hermit or wandering pilgrim, or a member of an "on-line" Sangha, the work is for each of us is with "me, myself and I (and not-I, in the Buddhist case)", all alone on our little Zafu.

Now, I will say this about the title of this thread ... one may not be able to "teach Zen on the net" unless one uses some skill, and great care Frankly, I don't see my honored Dharma Brother's "basketball jump-shot by observing" analogy, because there is no jump shot here ... just sitting still, manifesting silence and illumination, body-mind dropped away, with many Precepts, philosophical points and Buddhist perspectives to master. Frankly, I have never been to a Zen group or even a large monastery where one got to "hang out" with the "master" for more than a few hours here and there (Zen masters are busy ... they don't hang around). Taking this "Zen Way" is more one of inner (and outer, not two) contemplation/non-contemplation, put into action in our own lives ... no teacher can teach much of that by just observing how he sits and chews his meals (you have to chew your own meals).

As this Sangha is about to enter its 4th year ... I frankly find our experience here about the same ... often much better, rarely worse ... as most "bricks and mortars" Zen centers that are geared for lay folks and meet in a building.

Here's why:

Because (as I said), in this practice, you have to do the "heavy lifting ... and sitting" yourself ... your "self" by its "self". The teacher and community are just a support and guide. That is true in any Sangha or "Zen Group" I have sat with (a monastery is different, to the degree there are ceremonies and "priest craft" to master for a young priest in training.). But, in any lay Sangha ... the focus is sitting.

Thus, in --any-- Sangha I have sat with ... well, it is just like here: People come and go, stick with the practice and give up, while a few people keep at it year after year ... realizing the true fruits. The community, like ours, is always a few dozen people very active at any time ... some devoted handful who are constantly at the heart ... hundreds who drop in from time to time. There is no community that meets once or twice a week for a quick "talk & Zazen" ... or even for an hour or so every day ... that can offer the support that we can here.

Look ... my "small comment" has already ended up longer than I anticipated. The only thing is to pile more words on it. Here is something I wrote on this question at IBF ... some folks have read it before ...

Gassho, Jundo

It is dangerous to walk this Zen walk without a flesh and blood teacher and companions, much as one would be foolish to set off on a long hike in the wild mountains and deeps woods without some experienced guide and supplies (even though there is "no where" to get to on this trip ... do not think that there are not many traps and pitfalls along the way). One is more likely to wind up wandering in circles, or falling in a ravine, than getting where one wishes to be ... if one sets out like a fool in the woods.

What is more, the woods are perilous and ever changing, and no single book or map can capture it all.

Thus, merely reading some books, watching some videos and listening to tapes is not sufficient. One needs constant back-&-forth feedback and support, coupled with a willingness to be open minded to advice that one is lost.

Now, the best ... the only way ... to be assured of that is through regular interaction with a "flesh and blood" teacher and fellow members of a Sangha walking the same woods.

If at all possible, one should seek out a "flesh and blood" group of people, meeting near one's geographical location ... in a building made of bricks or wood ... and sit with them, talk with them, see them and touch them. Learn from them.

However, for folks who do not have that option ... or for people who wish to supplement attendance in a building because they are limited in the times that they can attend (due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or childcare and family needs) ... I will put up what we have at our Treeleaf Sangha, "online" as it is, head and shoulders with any Sangha in the world.

Even a brief visit to our Forum, with its dignified and self-discovering heart-to-heart communication and interaction on the matter of this Practice and Life (not two, by the way) ...

index.php

... reveals a "flesh and blood" family of people, fellow seekers ... sitting together, talking together, learning together, supporting one another, TRULY seeing and touching each other. As but one example, please follow some of our recent discussions on Zen practice and the members of our Sangha who are survivors of cancer and other life challenging medical conditions ...


Please remember that all of life is virtual, all of our experience of life is virtual as explained by Buddhist philosophy ... Yogacara, Madhyamika, Abidharma the earliest Buddhist teachings all in accord on this ... a model of reality created in the Mind (as mediated through the senses, and re-assembled in a very complicated process). Sure, at Treeleaf, we have a couple of limitations on which senses we use at any one time ... but in Buddhism, that is not necessarily a bad thing.

We are taught to thus rely, to see as never before seen, through the senses that remain ... learning from the blind Zen masters who communicate in other, creative ways!

And what of the supposed "distance" that separates us?

Where are you at the instant all thoughts of "here" and "there" are dropped from mind?

In Zazen, those words, those concepts, can be dropped quick away. The mind thinks the thoughts "here" and "there," and thus the mind can be let to stop doing so too. We need not experience some "here" where we are, as opposed to all "theres" where we're not.

So then, where are you?

I completely agree. If someone can, one should go sit with folks under the same roof.

Of course, one can still be as separate and isolated from other people even if sitting an inch apart or skin to skin. Barriers and dividers can still pull us apart, even when living as friends and family in the same house! It is all up to the mind, emotions and attitudes we all bring into it.

And as our Treeleaf Sangha proves daily, we can build connections and make true contact with each other in ways which compensate for the limitations of distance and sense. I would not say that we are playing at Zen here ... not the Zazen equivalent of "virtual sex" to true love making ... but instead, we are building friendships, compassionate relationships, intimacy and supporting each other without thought of distance or physical separation. It is, again, all up to the mind you bring into this.

(By the way, I think that many of us at Treeleaf, with time and honest communication, have come to know each other better than in many a Sangha I have attended where folks meet for a few hours, once or twice a week, mostly for silent sitting. We talk to each other more, and on a daily basis. I would insist that our level of intimacy surpasses many a non-residential "Sangha meeting inside walls" where folks show up once or twice a week at best, chat for a bit, listen to a talk then sit without a word ... all before getting in the car and driving home. Maybe a Sunday potluck dinner or sometime outing is their only real chance to really find out about each other. Well, our folks truly meet and open up to each other day after day. There is constant teaching, there is constant learning.)

When we drop all thought of "here" and "there", where is Zazen not to be sat? Where is Zazen not, right in the moment we are sitting Zazen?

Anyway, enough on this.

Gassho, Jundo

[lorax]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Jundo, thanks so much for your comments and observations. I was getting a bit unsettled reading this thread. Treeleaf is a very important part of my life each day, either by reading new posts on the forum, sitting with you or Taigu after your teachings, or simply sitting with the cat each morning. I know the regular members who participate in the forum, they are familiar friends who I sit with each day. Finally, the most important aspect is that I have access to you when things don’t quite fit or when I want to share that things are going great. A true friend and TEACHER.

It is not just a “this or nothing” relationship with the sangha. I doubt I would trade it for a local sangha or sitting group if it did exist out here in far West Texas.

Thanks to you and Taigu for being our Teachers at Treeleaf.

Jim

[Eika]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Brad might be wrong.

Gassho,
Eika


Be lamps unto yourselves. Be a refuge unto yourselves. Do not turn to any external refuge.... Work out your own salvation with diligence.

[Eika]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

In all seriousness, jazz musicians were adamant that "you can't play jazz on electric instruments!" back when a few folks like Miles Davis started trying it. One never knows until one tries. I forgive Brad for not being able to see how to make it happen on the Net, it is not his responsibility to be on the "cutting edge" of Zen pedagogy. Maybe Jundo will succeed, maybe he won't. His success depends more on us as students than on him as a teacher. We are the ones who will either take the things that Taigu and Jundo offer and live lives that honor the teachings and their lineage, or we will let it be wasted. So, Keishin's challenge is actually a very good one. Talk will never prove or disprove a thing like this. It really is up to us to demonstrate that it can be done . . . not for the sake of being right, but to find a new way to realize the Dharma.

Peace to you all,
Eika

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Yeah, he can teach the curious people who found his books at Barnes and Noble in Albuquerque, but the internet is just a waste of time.

[Bansho]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Hi,

I've heard some people say that Brad Warner inspired them to take up Zen practice. That's wonderful. If they also find reading his blog and books to be helpful for their practice, that's fine too. However, no one should make the mistake of thinking that anything he says has any bearance on your life and on your practice - unless you personally allow it to. It's just one voice amongst many. You decide which ones are worth listening to. Personally, I've looked at his blog, but never felt the urge to read any of his books. If you take him seriously, that's OK, but you certainly don't have to. I don't.

Gassho
Bansho

[Martin]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Brad's Hardcore Zen was the right book for me at the right time. I shall always be grateful to him for that.

Treeleaf is the only sangha that I have. Apart from family, friends, work, and the rest of humanity. I am so grateful to Jundo and Taigu and to all of you for making all of this possible.

I work as a Mediator. Helping people settle disputes without going to court. I spend time with each party in turn hearing their case, helping them understand the other party's position, sometimes feeling their pain, sometimes laughing with them, always helping them face the risks and uncertainties of going to court, always helping them think about a future solution rather than a past grievance. Mostly, the day ends with a settlement and hand shakes all round. About 75% of the time.

Some while ago on line mediation was suggested. The great and the good of the mediation world were unanimous. You can't mediate on line. Can't be done. Period. You have to be there in the room with the person. You have to have to be able to be sensitive to the whole person, to pick up their mood and tone, to know when to laugh and when to cry, to know when to press and when to stand back, to sense when a kind word is needed, when a harder word is needed, and when no words at all are needed. Doing that on line would be impossible. Like trying to teach basketball on line. And whilst I wouldn't count myself as among the "great and the good" of the mediation world, I agreed with them. Nothing so personal, so intimate, could possibly work on line as opposed to in person.

Never the less, I agreed to take part in some preliminary trials for on line mediation. Partly, because I could see there might be instances where it had a very limited role e.g., where disability prevents people taking part in a "proper" mediation. But partly, also, to help "prove" those who thought this crazy idea could work, wrong.

So far the indications are that on line mediation works. In some instances, it works better than in person mediation. People feel free, perhaps. The success rate in our trials is well over 90%. "Better" than for face to face mediation. And my business is building it's own on line mediation platform.

Odd, no? Sometimes what matters is the connection, not how it's made.

Gassho

Martin

[AlanLa]

Re: Brad Warner insists you can't teach Zen on the net.

Martin said:

Sometimes what matters is the connection, not how it's made.

Excellent!! But maybe most times or all the time.