Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

[Undo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Why did you ignore the first example?

As to the second

I guess part of what draws people to zen is the 'old-timey' talk - 'Moons in Dewdrops' and whatnot. The thing is - The moon in the dewdrop might have been a much more readily available sight to people in Dogen's time. There also might have been a lot more people walking up mountain paths on a more daily basis. 'Chop wood, carry water' - unless you're a rural professional camper, I suspect this is not a regular part of your day...

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

The spirit of this thread is confrontational - along the lines of Dharma Combat. Only delusion is meant to be abused. The bombastic title should have been an indication..

Perhaps we should have a section of the forum for this. Threads meant for this could be started there. Threads that become confrontational (in a good way) could be moved there.

Chet

[Shui_Di]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Hi chet...

I'm the one who doubt about Buddha Dharma. I think that the dharma should be like this, and should not be like that.

You know, because the dharma that I understand is just an intelectual thing, I try to convince my self that what I belief is the truth, the right one.

Now, you see.... when you start judging one thing as right, another become wrong.
And when you can't convince your self again, the doubt arise.

I have a big doubt untill I just drop the dharma that I believe is the right one.
You know, those dharma is just an intelectual understanding. It never be a reality.

Zen is not something that we must convince our self as the right way. Zen is about reality that doesn't need to be convinced.

Zen is just life, right here and now. Whether you doubt or not, whether you believe or not, reality pervades every where.

And become one with the reality means to drop all your understanding, and see what ever life as it is.

If some one ask me,
Do you know whether your choise is right or wrong?

I choose nothing...

I just want to drink my tea...


Gassho, mujo

[AlanLa]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

I wrote: "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way."

I plead guilty to the zennie. We know what these words mean to Chet, so here is what they mean to me.

I have great faith in the dharma, great trust. I have no doubts Buddha and all those folks after him, right up to Jundo, got it right. They made the dharma useful in their lives, and now it is my turn. All that wisdom and truth they talk about that I have so much trust and faith in is useless unless I can actualize it in my life as they did in theirs. The Path they show me is useful only when I make use of it, otherwise it is useless. Also, I expect nothing from the dharma, no gain of any kind. In this way it is useless. I do, however, expect myself to make something useful out of the dharma. If any of this is BS or too ego driven or whatever, then it is my struggle, my confusion, my Path, my ego whatever BS. I'll be on my way now.

PS: Since I have no doubts about zen, it now occurs to me that I should never have responded to this thread. That I did and things got so exciting is therefore partly my responsibility. You are welcome :roll: :wink: :mrgreen: :evil:

[Tobiishi]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Getting discouraged is very valuable in our practice! It shows where there are mistaken ideas about what our way is.

IMHO.

Better to be discouraged than have kensho. Kensho is so hard to question. Then again, maybe they both push you on the path. But no one SEEKS discouragement and so many seek Kensho. Why is this?

Chet

Is it possible (and if so, likely) to have a genuine Buddhist practice without first having many mistaken ideas and discouragements?

Also, is it possible that I can set myself up for discouragement (while hiding this motive from myself, if you believe in the subconscious mind) in order to experience the insight that can only come from discouragement?. Not self-defeating behavior, but acceptance of the difficulty of a path and walking it anyway, like taking the long route for the delightful scenery.

In my opinion, the answer to the first question is 'probably not,' and the second is 'I hope so.'

gassho
tobiishi

[Tb]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Is it possible (and if so, likely) to have a genuine Buddhist practice without first having many mistaken ideas and discouragements?

Also, is it possible that I can set myself up for discouragement (while hiding this motive from myself, if you believe in the subconscious mind) in order to experience the insight that can only come from discouragement?. Not self-defeating behavior, but acceptance of the difficulty of a path and walking it anyway, like taking the long route for the delightful scenery.

Hi.

Alice: You mean impossible?
Doorknob: No, impassible. Nothing's impossible.

-alice in wonderland

As for the first question, yes, it is.
The second question yes, and that quite common sometimes it seems.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Jinho]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Why do you think 'kind speech' means honoring misconceptions or being gentle with a persons' delusions?

Chet

Actually, everyone here has been very gentle with your delusion that you have the right to insult people (you call it being "honest"), everyone here has been very patient with your condemnations of your simple misunderstandings of their words.

[Jinho]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

At this point, I don't really expect anything to magically happen.

Hi,

I am not sure that -I- get the point of some of the above posts ... but let me get on my soapbox and makes some things clear:

Who said that there is "nothing to find" in and through this practice, no place to get, no treasure at the end of the rainbow?

Not me. I never would say such a silly thing. Then why pursue this path?

Who said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

Just because we are not seeking does not mean we are not seeking ... nor that there aren't magical marvels thus to find! Enlightenment!

To the marrow sitting free of seeking ... is a dandy way thus to find something which can only be found by sitting radically free of seeking. Realizing that there is no where to get to, and no place you can get ... is finally getting somewhere that will revolutionize our life.

Being the "Buddha" all along, and having not a thing about you that is in need of change ... that does not mean you don't have some work to do to realize truly that you are the Buddha without need of change. To realize that you are never, from the outset, in need of change is a VERY BIG CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an irreplaceably important addition!

By being "goalless" we hit the goal ... a goal which is hit by being thoroughly goalless.

In seeing the ordinary as sacred ... we find (as Hakuin Zenji wrote) "this earth where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land, and this very body the body of Buddha".

Yes, the key is "not me" ... because that "me" is a trouble maker of frictions with the "not me" world. But depriving the "me" of its fuel, dropping body-mind, the friction vanishes. The way to "drop body-mind" is to drop all thought of achievement of "dropping body-mind" and all other need for achievement ... which results in a very major achievement, namely, the "dropping of body-mind."

And, yes, finally ... this practice makes me happy, joyful, deep down and pervading. It is an abiding happiness and joy at a life in which I do not need to, and will not, feel happy and joyful all or much of the time. And that makes me happy!

See how that all works?

For more details on this wacky, crazy, Koany, Zenny way of inside out, Alice through the looking glassness ... I repost the following ...

Hi,

Well, let me say what I always say ... and this is the BRILLIANCE, I assure all, of our path of "Non-attaining" ...

HEED CLOSELY THE FOLLOWING!

"Shikantaza" Zen practice is a radical, to the marrow, dropping of the self's demands that something needs to be attained to make this world "right", that something must be added or removed from our lives to make life complete, that something is defective and needs to be changed., that we need to get some place to find our "True Home".

HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

GOT HOW THAT WORKS? :shock:

All of that is dropped from mind ... with other related stuff like thoughts of this and that, self and other ... and, in doing so, the body-mind of self (being out of a job) drops away too!

JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE I: But this must NOT be understood merely intellectually, and instead actually made the living practice of our life ... thus, all that Zazen! Chasing that which cannot be chased, attaining that which need not and cannot be attained.

As Chet says rightly ... Zen is not a "self help tool". It will not let you avoid growing old, cure your cancer, repair your broken marriage, or even fix your flat tire. It will not add one thing to your life, nor make any improvement in it whatsoever.

And realizing that is instantly a solution to all your problems ... because they are not problems when you do not resist them as problems, and when all separation of "me" from "them" drops away.

etc. etc. etc.


Gassho, Jundo

PS - JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE - Accepting the world as "just the way it is" does not mean we need sit on our backsides. Remember, please, "acceptance without acceptance". We can accept the cancer,yet take our medicine. Be wholly "at one" with a flat tire, yet change it. Just because you are now "at one" with your alcoholic, cigarette smoking, morbidly obese, fighting and cussing ways ... does not mean your should not live a more healthful way, and quit all that. You can accept your condition ... but you had best not accept your condition.

Dear Jundo,

Your post has given me a new better feeling for Soto zen. We can discuss in private the impression that Soto zen has to those of us on the outside, so that misconceptions can be corrected.

rowan/jinho

[Jundo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Dear Jundo,

Your post has given me a new better feeling for Soto zen. We can discuss in private the impression that Soto zen has to those of us on the outside, so that misconceptions can be corrected.

rowan/jinho

Ultimately, no 'inside' or 'outside' buckaroo. :wink:

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Why do you think 'kind speech' means honoring misconceptions or being gentle with a persons' delusions?

Chet

Actually, everyone here has been very gentle with your delusion that you have the right to insult people (you call it being "honest"), everyone here has been very patient with your condemnations of your simple misunderstandings of their words.

Jinho,

It's clear you object to my style. Our styles are clearly very different - however, I honor you contribution for many reasons. Chief among them is your sincerity. Because our communications are rather limited, it's easy to mistake one's style with his or her character.

I am not a mean spirited person. Although it may not be evident, I attacked what I perceived to be possible insincerity in Alan's response. This should be obvious by the fact that I have not since prodded him about his style. His elaborations have helped reduced a barrier I had to knowing his thinking that metaphor can easily mask. However, mutually shared lingo is also a hallmark of the bonds of community. There is nothing
intrinsically wrong with such lingo, but it is shorthand that is
easily obfuscates one's true understanding.

I wanted to know Alan's thinking, not share in the shorthand in a bond of community.

Chet

[Shohei]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it. People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something.. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.

IMHO

Chet

who hasn't!? I sure did and have and will. I have my bouts of doubts. But I probably am missing the point though! I often think thats my thing. second guessing and wondering if i missed the point. Interesting thread, really got the wheels spinning thank you to all who have posted/will post.

Gassho Shohei
/seta lurkemode 1

[AlanLa]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Chet wrote: I attacked what I perceived to be possible insincerity in Alan's response. This should be obvious by the fact that I have not since prodded him about his style. His elaborations have helped reduced a barrier I had to knowing his thinking that metaphor can easily mask.

Does this mean I win the dharma combat?
I want a trophy!
I WANNA TROPHY!!
WHERE'S MY TROPHY!!!!

Oh wait, my Manjushri statue arrived today. Chet, you shouldn't have :roll:

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Everyone wins.

I'm brusque, but it's just because I care enough to find out what you're about. All of you. Anyone I've been rough with, it's just the fastest way to gauge who you are and what you're really about.

Gassho.

Chet

[Shonin]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

You're all Buddhas to me. *shrug*

_/_

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Maybe I'm crazy, and I may be the only one who feels this way, but I happen to enjoy Chet's method of delivery. I suppose the reason that I enjoy it is because, to me, it's a more realistic use of language and communication. Maybe I just run in different circles, but to me, it's exactly how two friends (perhaps even strangers) would interact with one another. In fact, that IS how I interact with my close friends. Maybe it's just that I can see myself sitting with Chet drinking coffee and talking for hours. I prefer someone who is authentic, and that's exactly how he comes across to me.

NOTE: This is not saying that no one else here is authentic, merely that I (seemingly) share much in common with Chet and he strikes me as a no BS, WYSIWYG kind of person, and I am drawn to that.

I should probably post something that is actually related to the original purpose of this thread, but it's 2:35am and I have to pick my wife up from work at 6am, so I should probably go to bed. I'll check back in later.