Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

[Tb]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Fugen wrote:
I always had a problem with saying its "right here".
Can there be a "right here" without an "left there"?

But when it's all "right here," there is no "left there" left over. When it's all one, there is no need for two; one beyond one leaves no room or place for two. Fugen caught by dualism? I must be dreaming :wink:

I was really going to post something else, but then I saw Fugen's post and had to respond,,, and now I realize that what I was going to say is completely pointless. So, never mind.

Hi.

Yes.
Youre right, when you put the "all" in, it's another matter.
When you put it like it's "all here", that means even the "left there"...

As for the one-two part, what is a one with out a two, a three asf?
But remeber even though you may say two, three asf, it's all still "one thing", numbers...

What he's really trying to do is put it out there for you all to start thinking, realizing...

And as for Fugen caught by dualism, let me quote another master who keeps banging my head: "do not saparate between hot and cold".

And for the last one, nothing is pointless...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Here's what I've learned so far up to now:

What the heck is enlightenment?!

This is what it's come to. I've had moments of great intimacy, smells and sounds etc.. Is that it? I've also have moments, like now, of clarity. I know that things, or habits, are changing. Whether I have "anything" to do with that, I don't know. There you go. Time to sit again.

W

I can't say I know what enlightenment is...I've had what I believe was a kensho experience. But there's a difference between waking up in a dream and staying awake enough in a dream to thoroughly and creatively engage with it. The point is not to trancend a hoax, in my opinion, it's to wake up and then ENGAGE life completely and creatively.

My point here is that some people seem to think that a 'lights on' experience is something fantastic - when really, it's the most normal thing there is..and they chase it thinking it's the ultimate situational solution to their problems (and that attitude is exactly what prevents the 'lights on' experience in the first place). If you have a 'lights on' experience, you'll be absolutely sure that it's transformed you (unless you have wise counsel to clue you in)...but it's very easy to relapse into thinking that there are situational solutions to our problems - only now your situational solutions revolve around the mythical 'lights on' experience. That was my experience. If you're lucky, the dissonance will collapse your constructs.

Other people though, seem to think that enlightenment is just resignation..a mellow acceptance of the facts of the myriad types of suffering - a quiet acquiescence to what seems like the unavoidable facts of life. Some people seem to think that Zen is the perfect balance of self-control and numbing out (whether they admit that or not). I see these 'life-reduced', misguided people all the time trying so damned hard to be 'good Buddhists'. That's not it either.

IMHO.

Chet

[Shugen]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Some people seem to think that Zen is the perfect balance of self-control and numbing out

For me, Zen is about self discipline and opening up, not "numbing out" . You need to put the time on the zafu which involves some degree of self discipline. Sometimes all this talk about what enlightenment is or isn't just muddies the water for me. I have no idea what it is, I just know at this stage that sitting is something I want/need to do and will continue to do.

Klueless in Kentucky

[Keishin]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who Among You Doubts (the Budha Dharma)?

this doubt is a pivot upon which 'thinking,' (perhaps better described as 'conditioned thought') can be easily, almost effortlessly shifted.
buddhist doubt is not skepticism
when you are around a long-time zazen practitioner you get to see and experience this living doubt: tireless, fearless, cheerful, undaunted, joyful even in sorrow, alive, ALIVE!, bristling, shining with livingness...

for whatever reason--something brings us/brought us to zen buddhism and the practice of zazen.
what usually brings someone to a religion is some kind of psychological discomfort or crisis --
we enter the 'zen culture' of the zen center we encounter: the different names in Chinese, Japanese, Sanskrit, Korean; the rituals, the clothing, the posture, we get a new name!
but these are just other ways to occupy time, occupy mind until we 'grow up' enough to tolerate doubt

doubt enables suspension of premature conviction

The activity of suspending convictions is like letting the mind swim naked: deliciously freeing!

in zazen doubt itself is even doubted!

not everyone likes the experience of swimming
or the experience of being naked
doubt is not for everyone

but if you have doubt
zazen practice is a good one to consider--indubitably...

if you doubt that you have doubt--still consider!

[will]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

I think some guy once said "Practice is Enlightenment." What we do with these bones.

Somehow I don't think angels are going to fly down from the sky singing "AHHHHH... " in unison.

When you put up with yourself long enough, well...

Enlightenment can be some kind of story etc. etc., but ultimately it's just life really. Just life without so much worry, or hesitation. Talking about Enlightenment is Enlightenment. Right now. The only difference between before and now is that we don't really add any extravagant idea to it. There's no craving there. "ooooohhh...Yeahhh. Ennnliiighteeenmeeeent. Sounds nice." Perhaps more like:

A: Got some enlightenment there?
B: Yep.
A: Well... gotta go do the weeds.
B: See ya Ralph.

"Waking up" is probably a more suiting phrase.

But what do I know?

Time for bed.

W

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Enlightenment can be some kind of story etc. etc., but ultimately it's just life really. Just life without so much worry, or hesitation. Talking about Enlightenment is Enlightenment. Right now. The only difference between before and now is that we don't really add any extravagant idea to it. There's no craving there.

Wow, Will..that's...you put it better than I've been able to do.

Gassho.

(Boy do I appreciate this Sangha...)

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who Among You Doubts (the Budha Dharma)?

this doubt is a pivot upon which 'thinking,' (perhaps better described as 'conditioned thought') can be easily, almost effortlessly shifted.
buddhist doubt is not skepticism
when you are around a long-time zazen practitioner you get to see and experience this living doubt: tireless, fearless, cheerful, undaunted, joyful even in sorrow, alive, ALIVE!, bristling, shining with livingness...

for whatever reason--something brings us/brought us to zen buddhism and the practice of zazen.
what usually brings someone to a religion is some kind of psychological discomfort or crisis --
we enter the 'zen culture' of the zen center we encounter: the different names in Chinese, Japanese, Sanskrit, Korean; the rituals, the clothing, the posture, we get a new name!
but these are just other ways to occupy time, occupy mind until we 'grow up' enough to tolerate doubt

doubt enables suspension of premature conviction

The activity of suspending convictions is like letting the mind swim naked: deliciously freeing!

in zazen doubt itself is even doubted!

not everyone likes the experience of swimming
or the experience of being naked
doubt is not for everyone

but if you have doubt
zazen practice is a good one to consider--indubitably...

if you doubt that you have doubt--still consider!

Hey Keishen...

Do I recognize you from ZCLA? Except for a few people there, I fucking hated that place! I probably should have gone a lot more until my preferences were worn down - but then again, that place is completely associated with Hannah (Seishin) in my mind...as is most of my LA experience.

I was talking about a different kind of doubt in my original post, Keishen - but you bring up some good points.

Chet

[Shugen]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Thank you for this thread.

Ron

[Rich]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who Among You Doubts (the Budha Dharma)?


in zazen doubt itself is even doubted!

not everyone likes the experience of swimming
or the experience of being naked
doubt is not for everyone

but if you have doubt
zazen practice is a good one to consider--indubitably...

if you doubt that you have doubt--still consider!

This doubt (don't know) mind is sharper than a knife. It cuts thru thinking.

I think some guy once said "Practice is Enlightenment." What we do with these bones.

Somehow I don't think angels are going to fly down from the sky singing "AHHHHH... " in unison.

When you put up with yourself long enough, well...

Enlightenment can be some kind of story etc. etc., but ultimately it's just life really. Just life without so much worry, or hesitation. Talking about Enlightenment is Enlightenment. Right now. The only difference between before and now is that we don't really add any extravagant idea to it. There's no craving there. "ooooohhh...Yeahhh. Ennnliiighteeenmeeeent. Sounds nice." Perhaps more like:

A: Got some enlightenment there?
B: Yep.
A: Well... gotta go do the weeds.
B: See ya Ralph.

"Waking up" is probably a more suiting phrase.

But what do I know?

Time for bed.

W

there is nothing else to say, but Dogen did say not to worry about the mind being deluded. Your actions are the Bodhisattva way itself. so just sitting, just eating, just talking, just driving, just doing is the practice and it doesn't matter if you call it enlightenment or not but I think it is.
Chet, thanks for this thread.

[AlanLa]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere?

That would be me, but I now know that I am here. Yet the Path to get some/nowhere continues...

Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking?

I seek peace, and it is right here, but not always, so I keep on the non/seeking Path.

Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness?

Yes, and I think I have found it, but I have not yet both grasped it and also let go of it, so I keep on the Path.

An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness!

Been there and left there, going back and forth all the time, such is the Path.

That whole drive IS unhappiness!

Yes, but the drive consists of change, and so it is not ALL unhappiness.

You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right?

Nope, but just "this" is much more elusive than it would seem, such is the path on the way to the Path.

We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it.

I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way.

People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.

This is a side path on the Path.

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere?

That would be me, but I now know that I am here. Yet the Path to get some/nowhere continues...

Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking?

I seek peace, and it is right here, but not always, so I keep on the non/seeking Path.

Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness?

Yes, and I think I have found it, but I have not yet both grasped it and also let go of it, so I keep on the Path.

An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness!

Been there and left there, going back and forth all the time, such is the Path.

That whole drive IS unhappiness!

Yes, but the drive consists of change, and so it is not ALL unhappiness.

You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right?

Nope, but just "this" is much more elusive than it would seem, such is the path on the way to the Path.

We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it.

I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way.

People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.

This is a side path on the Path.

Oh for fuck's sake, Alan... Do you even have any idea what the hell you are typing or are you only typing it because it 'sounds Zen-like'? "I have not yet both grasped it and let go of it"? "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way."?

Why is it that when Westerners want to sound like the teachers or texts that they're emulating, they avoid contractions just like someone would if English wasn't their first language?

And if you get offended by my response - ask yourself what part of you feels offended before you get all puffed up about it...Would you care to stumble forward in a voice that's maybe more authentic and not as affectedly 'Zen-like'?

Here's a hint - before you hit submit, say what you've typed aloud and reflect on whether it would sound abso-smurfl-ey ridiculous in an honest-to-goodness conversation.

(In good faith, I'll admit that the beginning of my original post also avoided contractions and therefore sounded just a smidge affected...maybe a touch melodramatic. I do believe though that I avoided the whole 'say-something-and-then-totally-contradict-it-in-a-very-awkward-sentence-structure' thing you've got going on...)


(I also can't believe I typed 'Who among you have...' Clearly, I was drunk or something.)

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

(I also can't believe I typed 'Who among you have...' Clearly, I was drunk or something.)

I kinda liked the "who among you" bit, actually. :wink:

Right...but the subject is singular, so the verb should be singular (has instead of have).

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Hi Chet
That's an authentic smile for you as I sit by my post.
Doubt as you please.

[Keishin]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Hello Chet/disastermouse, and all others posting here!

No, I don't think you know me from ZCLA. I have sat with folks who were affiliated with ZCLA, but have sat very rarely at ZCLA itself.
I just have always felt like more like a distant cousin when it comes to the White Plum Asangha. I owe a great deal of my early days of practice to Jifu Gower who had a sitting group in her home (3 days a week, then two days a week, then one day a week and then she ended sitting groups coming to her home). My son was 3 years old and as a single mom with no support group--she let Andrew lie on her bed and watch cartoons while sitting happened in the room dedicated as the zendo down the hall. It immensely helped the regularity of my practice and it was a treat for Andrew--once in a while we'd hear his laughter during sitting.

In my experience: sitting with different groups over long periods of time has been a benefit. Rinsai vs soto is not an intellectual distinction. Korean chanting vs Japanese chanting, vs no chanting.
Good stuff, this getting to know these different approaches--of that, I have no doubts!

[Cameron]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Oh for fuck's sake, Alan... Do you even have any idea what the hell you are typing or are you only typing it because it 'sounds Zen-like'? "I have not yet both grasped it and let go of it"? "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way."?

Why is it that when Westerners want to sound like the teachers or texts that they're emulating, they avoid contractions just like someone would if English wasn't their first language?

And if you get offended by my response - ask yourself what part of you feels offended before you get all puffed up about it...Would you care to stumble forward in a voice that's maybe more authentic and not as affectedly 'Zen-like'?

Here's a hint - before you hit submit, say what you've typed aloud and reflect on whether it would sound abso-smurfl-ey ridiculous in an honest-to-goodness conversation.

(In good faith, I'll admit that the beginning of my original post also avoided contractions and therefore sounded just a smidge affected...maybe a touch melodramatic. I do believe though that I avoided the whole 'say-something-and-then-totally-contradict-it-in-a-very-awkward-sentence-structure' thing you've got going on...)


(I also can't believe I typed 'Who among you have...' Clearly, I was drunk or something.)

Chet

I think striving for the use of 'normal' language is admirable. If we can reduce confusion and perhaps make topics more approachable, great. I think Jundo does an awesome job of this and even makes sense of 'Zen-like' stuff too. Sounding like a fortune cookie or a poorly translated textbook is less helpful. On the other hand, if you come across something that you can't make sense of or that sounds ridiculous, leave it behind. You won't miss anything if it means nothing to you.

I'm just me, but I don't care for foul language (how much worse is it than what Alan said?) in this setting. It just seems angry. It's unpleasant. I'm just throwing that out there; just a gentle observation. I'm not going to give anyone a hard time about it because I'm really starting to notice how awful I feel after I've criticized someone.

Cam