Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

[Jundo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

NOTE: This is not saying that no one else here is authentic, merely that I (seemingly) share much in common with Chet and he strikes me as a no BS, WYSIWYG kind of person, and I am drawn to that.

That is why I cherish Chet around here too. No BS. Remember, it takes two to tango on being "bothered" by someone's words ... the person who speaks them, and the person who reacts. Each of us who reacts should exam the second part of that equation, not merely the first.

Besides being a "wiseguy", I always find Chet a very "wise guy" ... compassionate too.

We have a "rule" around here (the only rule ... besides sitting Zazen each day) that we should be kind to each other. I like to keep that rule, cause it is conducive to practice. But a little spice and punch is "right speech" and "skillful means" sometimes too, so sometimes the "rule" can have an exception. I think I can usually tell the difference between people who always like to make waves just to make trouble, and someone who can be gentle sometimes, strong in words sometimes. When Chet packs a punch, there is usually a purpose to it.

However, as a general rule ... we all still should be kind to each other. It can too easily move from "skillful means" to just plain "being mean"

Gassho, J

[will]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Chet
It came off as pretentious - as parroted.

Zen is not "Hardcore" Although teachers such as Ru jing used some ways to pull students out of their torpor, it is not the only thing left to do. When you hang out with someone long enough their ways rub off on you. Might be the way they speak or the way they act. Whatever it is, it rubs off. We are not as individualistic as some may think. In fact, at the core we are exactly the same. Though, we still have a personality.

So, whether someone sounds like "Zen master from old mountain top" really doesn't matter. We may "think" it matters, but it's not a big deal. One can choose the way one speaks if one wants. We can't "force" Zen. If we try to "force" it, then that might just end up causing more trouble. However, we can be truthful. The question we might ask is: "What is the truth?" You might find that it doesn't exist.

So yes hardcore in your face honesty is good sometimes, but one shouldn't try to force it, and one should also comeback to the gentleness and intimacy of practice.

What we should be aware of is pretentiousness: "I know and you don't." Of course, we can't be perfect all the time. So,maybe we should just drop it and let it sort itself out.

Chet says "Who the Fuck do you think you are?" Alan says "A flowering bumblebee." LOL

This is the way it goes. But we must keep in mind the surroundings that we are in. We need to gauge how our comment will be taken. Is it useful or will it just cause an argument, resentment, and misunderstanding.

One thing that I've learned is to appreciate both views and to appreciate the person. Another thing is to drop it. Forget about it. Instead say "How are you today?" like your meeting them for the first time. Might not happen all the time, but it's good to keep in mind.

So on that note "Keep it real, and don't take offense. We're in this together."

Gassho

W

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

In my mind, it worked just fine. It let me understand Alan better and it brought the lovely Jinho in to challenge me as well. The flack didn't bother me. I don't think I permanently hurt Al - just jostled him a bit.

I especially appreciate Jinho, actually. My first instinct is to be irritated - but then I realize that I need someone double checking my motives - and a reminder to be kind is never out of place.

Meanwhile - back to the OP: What are you secretly hoping that your practice will 'get' you?

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

I found this today and it seemed appropriate for this thread.

There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson

[Kevin]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it. People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something.. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.

IMHO

Chet

I actually find Zen practice to be quite useful. I first used it (or something akin to it) to improve my tennis game. It worked beautifully. I was then surprised to discover how well it applies to everything else in life. It happens to direct us back to "things as it is", which is very useful to me, because I tend to spend much of my time in my own mind. It has helped me recognize that my opinions are not static and, thus, allow me to accept others' disagreement with my opinions without forcing me to judge them or myself. It has helped me release my clinging grasp to my emotions, especially anger. It has helped me see that there is something out here that exists outside of my own thinking, thinking, thinking, and also that my thinking, thinking, thinking is a part of that something. These are just a few examples.

So, I've gotten a lot out of Zen, which is why I continue to practice. If I was convinced it was useless, I wouldn't bother.

Gassho,
Kevin

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it. People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something.. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.

IMHO

Chet

I actually find Zen practice to be quite useful. I first used it (or something akin to it) to improve my tennis game. It worked beautifully. I was then surprised to discover how well it applies to everything else in life. It happens to direct us back to "things as it is", which is very useful to me, because I tend to spend much of my time in my own mind. It has helped me recognize that my opinions are not static and, thus, allow me to accept others' disagreement with my opinions without forcing me to judge them or myself. It has helped me release my clinging grasp to my emotions, especially anger. It has helped me see that there is something out here that exists outside of my own thinking, thinking, thinking, and also that my thinking, thinking, thinking is a part of that something. These are just a few examples.

So, I've gotten a lot out of Zen, which is why I continue to practice. If I was convinced it was useless, I wouldn't bother.

Gassho,
Kevin

I'm not really denying any of that, Kevin. But that sort of Zen often leads into a different kind that is - most definitely - useless (in the best way, really).

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

I like some of the side-effects of zen practice. Since I took up taekwondo, I've had instructors commend me on my patience and a tendency to work toward something of a poised form in my practice. And some of the physical disciplines have paid out as well as such mental tweaks.

Zen is something that I'm just into in a non-complicated way, but at this point I have plenty enough reason to believe that it will continue to cultivate my life in positive ways.

How will it affect your practice when/if this changes?

Zen brings balance and all that - to a point. At some point though, sincere practice will also bring some things that you may find less than ego-serving. Will you be willing to go there?

Chet

[Kevin]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it. People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something.. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.

IMHO

Chet

I actually find Zen practice to be quite useful. I first used it (or something akin to it) to improve my tennis game. It worked beautifully. I was then surprised to discover how well it applies to everything else in life. It happens to direct us back to "things as it is", which is very useful to me, because I tend to spend much of my time in my own mind. It has helped me recognize that my opinions are not static and, thus, allow me to accept others' disagreement with my opinions without forcing me to judge them or myself. It has helped me release my clinging grasp to my emotions, especially anger. It has helped me see that there is something out here that exists outside of my own thinking, thinking, thinking, and also that my thinking, thinking, thinking is a part of that something. These are just a few examples.

So, I've gotten a lot out of Zen, which is why I continue to practice. If I was convinced it was useless, I wouldn't bother.

Gassho,
Kevin

I'm not really denying any of that, Kevin. But that sort of Zen often leads into a different kind that is - most definitely - useless (in the best way, really).

Chet

"that sort of Zen", "a different kind"... I'm not sure I agree with the assumptions underlying those phrases, that there are different "kinds" of Zen or that one is better or worse than another. Then again, I completely agree. Rinzai and Soto are different schools of Zen, perhaps different kinds of Zen, but, really, they're just different ways of looking at the same thing. Though this may be something of a stretch, I believe everything in life is really just different ways of looking at the same thing: Christianity vs Islam vs Buddhism etc; science vs art; business vs medicine vs cooking etc; and on and on...

Calling Zen "useless" seems to me a sort of koan, not unlike the sort of self-contradictory Zen cliche we see a lot (see the first two sentences of this post for an example). I mean, it's koan-like, no, for a person who has devoted his whole life to Zen (like Master Dogen, for example) to call Zen useless? Yes, perhaps by "seeking" "enlightenment" we wind up frustrated, but that's hardly useless, for that frustration, if it doesn't send us running into the arms of some more dualistic and familiar philosophy, will cause us to investigate and study and ultimately realize that it was the act of "seeking" (implying the search for something that 1) we don't have and 2) exists separate from what we are) that was the hindrance. This is very useful stuff.

I can see many ways in which Zen practice is useful, and I can see many ways in which Zen practice can be called useless, but those are just words to describe the ineffable. I feel that word in every one of the 25,000 posts in these 1,700 threads (or whatever the numbers may be) are just ways to describe the ineffable. A story I can't remember the source of:

Zen student and Zen master are admiring a beautiful sunset one evening.

After a time:

Zen student: "What a beautiful sunset!"
Zen master (sighs): "Yes, but what a shame to say so."

Words are useless because they can't describe what this is all about. But, words are incredibly useful because they can lead us toward the ineffable and serve as a crude way for us to communicate with each other about it. It's important, as you mention to Padre, to be open to the "less than ego-serving" stuff that comes up, inevitably, when we practice mindfulness. It's equally important to be open to the "ego-serving" stuff when it comes up. Zen is very useful, among other things, in helping us to become more aware of both. It's special at first (kensho, right?), then ordinary, then we realize it was there all along, which, I think, is where the whole "Zen is useless" idea comes in. I mean, how useful is it to sell a glass of water to a swimming fish? A glass of water is useless to a swimming fish. However, if the fish thinks he's not swimming, maybe selling him water will help him realize he is. Could be useful. Ultimately, though, the fish was swimming the whole time. So... so. As Will might say, we should just sit. Sitting is useful after a tangled post like this.

Gassho,
Kevin

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

If you sit for a reason, you're deluded. There is no reason to sit. Really. Not to 'clear your mind' or improve your tennis or make your karate especially kick-ass.

'But it makes my life easier/better/more 'flowing'. Great. But that's not why we sit.

Just sit. Your ego will try to make a tool of it, but don't buy into that.

IMHO.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Think anyone's going to meaningfully disagree, Chet?

Who knows?

Chet

[Kevin]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

If you sit for a reason, you're deluded. There is no reason to sit. Really. Not to 'clear your mind' or improve your tennis or make your karate especially kick-ass.

'But it makes my life easier/better/more 'flowing'. Great. But that's not why we sit.

Just sit. Your ego will try to make a tool of it, but don't buy into that.

IMHO.

Chet

I see what you're saying, Chet, and I agree with you. As Padre's last comment hinted, this is kinda one of the fundamental principles, here, so it's hard to dispute.

Yet, at the same time, this whole question smells faintly of bullshit. Follow me here:

1. Jundo talks of the two "channels" a lot: Channel 1 is the dualistic channel and Channel 2 is the non-dualistic channel
2. On Channel 1, Zen seems useless, because we're just sitting around, yet it yields useful results, in that it helps our tennis, our karate, clears our minds, etc.
3. On Channel 2, Zen is useless, because, whatever we do, we simply are where we are. The goals, the "results", the sitting, the not sitting, all are simply what they are, effortless, ineffable, true.
4. If, on Channel 1, we use Zen to achieve some goal, this is a waste of time, for those results are just dualistic constructions, fictions, from the perspective of Channel 2.
5. If, on Channel 2, we sit, it's kinda useless, too, for sitting is the same as not-sitting: "things-as-it-is"

We kinda act like Channel 1 is false and Channel 2 is real, but isn't it true that both channels are real? Watching a movie, the people on the screen aren't really there, but the light is there, and the representations are real representations, and the emotions we feel are real emotions, and so on. Yes, it's a fiction, but it's a fiction that has real impact. It's a real fiction. Channel 1 is dualistic, and dualism is a delusion, but it's a real delusion. It exists within the realm of Channel 2. As a matter of fact, Channel 2 wouldn't exist without Channel 1. "Channel 2" is a construction on Channel 1. We're all tuned into the Zen show on Channel 1.

Clinging to emptiness is just as delusional as clinging to form. Demanding that Channel 1 results are useless denies the reality of that fiction. Insisting that goallessness is the only acceptable goal is the fish denying the water. We can recognize that it's just a pond and there's lots of other stuff out there, but we still gotta swim in it.

Gassho,
Kevin

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

If you sit for a reason, you're deluded. There is no reason to sit. Really. Not to 'clear your mind' or improve your tennis or make your karate especially kick-ass.

'But it makes my life easier/better/more 'flowing'. Great. But that's not why we sit.

Just sit. Your ego will try to make a tool of it, but don't buy into that.

IMHO.

Chet

I see what you're saying, Chet, and I agree with you. As Padre's last comment hinted, this is kinda one of the fundamental principles, here, so it's hard to dispute.

Yet, at the same time, this whole question smells faintly of bullshit. Follow me here:

1. Jundo talks of the two "channels" a lot: Channel 1 is the dualistic channel and Channel 2 is the non-dualistic channel
2. On Channel 1, Zen seems useless, because we're just sitting around, yet it yields useful results, in that it helps our tennis, our karate, clears our minds, etc.
3. On Channel 2, Zen is useless, because, whatever we do, we simply are where we are. The goals, the "results", the sitting, the not sitting, all are simply what they are, effortless, ineffable, true.
4. If, on Channel 1, we use Zen to achieve some goal, this is a waste of time, for those results are just dualistic constructions, fictions, from the perspective of Channel 2.
5. If, on Channel 2, we sit, it's kinda useless, too, for sitting is the same as not-sitting: "things-as-it-is"

We kinda act like Channel 1 is false and Channel 2 is real, but isn't it true that both channels are real? Watching a movie, the people on the screen aren't really there, but the light is there, and the representations are real representations, and the emotions we feel are real emotions, and so on. Yes, it's a fiction, but it's a fiction that has real impact. It's a real fiction. Channel 1 is dualistic, and dualism is a delusion, but it's a real delusion. It exists within the realm of Channel 2. As a matter of fact, Channel 2 wouldn't exist without Channel 1. "Channel 2" is a construction on Channel 1. We're all tuned into the Zen show on Channel 1.

Clinging to emptiness is just as delusional as clinging to form. Demanding that Channel 1 results are useless denies the reality of that fiction. Insisting that goallessness is the only acceptable goal is the fish denying the water. We can recognize that it's just a pond and there's lots of other stuff out there, but we still gotta swim in it.

Gassho,
Kevin

Well, delusion is real too though. We can't just pretend everything is the Dharma.

Yes, form is the expression of emptiness - but without the realization of emptiness, how is it other than just dreaming? I'm not denying form - I'm saying that one can truly enter form only after realizing emptiness.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Calling Zen "useless" seems to me a sort of koan, not unlike the sort of self-contradictory Zen cliche we see a lot (see the first two sentences of this post for an example). I mean, it's koan-like, no, for a person who has devoted his whole life to Zen (like Master Dogen, for example) to call Zen useless?

If you sit for a reason, you're deluded. There is no reason to sit. Really. Not to 'clear your mind' or improve your tennis or make your karate especially kick-ass.

'But it makes my life easier/better/more 'flowing'. Great. But that's not why we sit.

Just sit. Your ego will try to make a tool of it, but don't buy into that.

I believe you are both right on the money ... and that, yes, is the Koanless Koan ...

I sit and continue this Practice, because there is a goal and reason and target and benefit. But what are they?

To lead a life without need for attaining goals, goals fully done away ... is the attaining of a marvelous goal.**

To learn to be immersed in a way of being without always having need for a reason ... that is a grand reason for practice.

To know that there is no finish line to cross even as we run the race, no target to hit ... is to perpetually arrive at the finish line with each step, ever hitting the target, always home.

To come to intimately embrace a life of both benefits and demerits (all while dropping all thought of benefit and demerit) ... a true benefit.

To taste thoroughly that there is no "me" sitting, just only sitting (living, being) ... a great spur to keep me sitting.

To find that there is no place to "get to" (nor anyone to get there 8) ) ... is to finally have gotten somewhere.

Something like that (I just woke up this morning )

In order to be equipped to attain these goals, reasons, targets and benefits, it is essential to sit without, in the least, thought or aspiration to attain any goal or reason or target or benefit ... vital, essential! Sitting is practice for attaining a life of non-attaining. :shock: As Chet says "Your ego will try to make a tool of it, but don't buy into that."

**(One note: An even more marvelous goal swallowing "dropping all goals of attaining" is attaining the goal of being able to lead a life with many goals ... because humans must have goals, or we would not even have the goal of getting out of bed in the morning .. while also all goals are dropped away ... both ways of being at once, not two. ... But that's another story 8) )

And, sure, along the way it may help your tennis game or Karate or cooking skills ... why not? In fact, wonderful and it will help with those skills in measurable and effective ways. But that is not the main purposeless purpose of Zen Practice. (Anyway, it sure has not helped my tennis game much! :roll: )

__________________

... It's special at first (kensho, right?), then ordinary, then we realize it was there all along, which, I think, is where the whole "Zen is useless" idea comes in. I mean, how useful is it to sell a glass of water to a swimming fish? A glass of water is useless to a swimming fish. However, if the fish thinks he's not swimming, maybe selling him water will help him realize he is. Could be useful. Ultimately, though, the fish was swimming the whole time.

Lovely image

[Kevin]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

I'm saying that one can truly enter form only after realizing emptiness.

Beautifully said, and I completely agree.

I would also say that one can mindfully re-enter delusion after recognizing delusion. In fact, one must do this. I would call this "uncushioned practice".

**(One note: An even more marvelous goal swallowing "dropping all goals of attaining" is attaining the goal of being able to lead a life with many goals ... because humans must have goals, or we would not even have the goal of getting out of bed in the morning .. while also all goals are dropped away ... both ways of being at once, not two. ... But that's another story)

Ah... Jundo says it much better :lol:

Gassho,
Kevin