Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Oh for fuck's sake, Alan... Do you even have any idea what the hell you are typing or are you only typing it because it 'sounds Zen-like'? "I have not yet both grasped it and let go of it"? "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way."?

Why is it that when Westerners want to sound like the teachers or texts that they're emulating, they avoid contractions just like someone would if English wasn't their first language?

And if you get offended by my response - ask yourself what part of you feels offended before you get all puffed up about it...Would you care to stumble forward in a voice that's maybe more authentic and not as affectedly 'Zen-like'?

Here's a hint - before you hit submit, say what you've typed aloud and reflect on whether it would sound abso-smurfl-ey ridiculous in an honest-to-goodness conversation.

(In good faith, I'll admit that the beginning of my original post also avoided contractions and therefore sounded just a smidge affected...maybe a touch melodramatic. I do believe though that I avoided the whole 'say-something-and-then-totally-contradict-it-in-a-very-awkward-sentence-structure' thing you've got going on...)


(I also can't believe I typed 'Who among you have...' Clearly, I was drunk or something.)

Chet

I think striving for the use of 'normal' language is admirable. If we can reduce confusion and perhaps make topics more approachable, great. I think Jundo does an awesome job of this and even makes sense of 'Zen-like' stuff too. Sounding like a fortune cookie or a poorly translated textbook is less helpful. On the other hand, if you come across something that you can't make sense of or that sounds ridiculous, leave it behind. You won't miss anything if it means nothing to you.

I'm just me, but I don't care for foul language (how much worse is it than what Alan said?) in this setting. It just seems angry. It's unpleasant. I'm just throwing that out there; just a gentle observation. I'm not going to give anyone a hard time about it because I'm really starting to notice how awful I feel after I've criticized someone.

Cam

I'm not really criticizing Alan - I'm asking for more. There's nothing wrong with anything he said - not at the base level. I just suspect there's something more sincere there. I want to know Alan - not 'Zen-approved Alan'. Not that there's anything wrong with it - but I suspect there's more. I said what I said not out of disrespect, but out of a desire to really know him and his situation.

Gassho

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Please be kind to each other ... not 5 minutes ago I wrote the below to someone writing an article for a magazine about how Buddhist blogs can be uncivilized ...

That does not mean that you need to pull any punches on making a point ... just do so with care ...

But, what the heck is wrong with what Alan wrote? I found many of the statements lovely and true for me ... and sometimes when we talk about Zen we will sound like we are talking about Zen. That is just the nature of the Path we walk. 8) As Alan said ...

I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way.

Gassho, Jundo

Also, if you get a chance (and have not already) do look around our forum at treeleaf ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/

You will find the discussions serious, warm, kind and focused on Zen practice. People are truly gentle with each other, and supportive in practice.

In the three years we have had the place going, I have had to delete three posts by member (one, an off color joke that just was in really bad taste ... and a fight that started between two members. That out of 25,000! posts on 1700 threads. Also, out of the 400 people who have registered to participate, I have had to ask 3 people not to participate further (two because they were regularly rude to other members ... one, because of concerns that made me demand a doctor's note for health issues). I think it is an amazing record.

Why are our folks so civil and kind to each other? I think it is the mood we set ... we have only two main rules: Sit Zazen each day and be kind to other members. It works. If you let the Precepts guide one, truly "Right & Gentle Speech" will prevail.

[AlanLa]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Chet wrote:
I'm not really criticizing Alan - I'm asking for more. There's nothing wrong with anything he said - not at the base level. I just suspect there's something more sincere there. I want to know Alan - not 'Zen-approved Alan'. Not that there's anything wrong with it - but I suspect there's more. I said what I said not out of disrespect, but out of a desire to really know him and his situation.

OK, I guess I better say something. I was not offended by your initial response, Chet, but I can understand how some might be. That you were asking for more from me got lost in the style of your asking. How you interpret what I write is up to you, not me. Whether it meets your standard of "enough" or "sincerity" is up to you, not me. However you label it is up to you, not me. I mean this in the nicest most possible way: I don't care That you cared so much to respond to it is your business, not mine. That being said, we are all Bozos on this bus :wink: so I understand that I am a part of the whole. Anyway, I've reread my post a bunch of times now, far more than it deserves, and I stand by/sit with it as is.

But since you asked so nicely this time that I am able to understand your request, how's this for more: I am bouncing along the Path, sometimes falling down the stairs and other times crawling up the mountain. Once in a while things level out. I have no easy answers for your challenging initial post; therefore, I can give you none :? I just appreciated the opportunity to explore the issue.

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Chet wrote:
I'm not really criticizing Alan - I'm asking for more. There's nothing wrong with anything he said - not at the base level. I just suspect there's something more sincere there. I want to know Alan - not 'Zen-approved Alan'. Not that there's anything wrong with it - but I suspect there's more. I said what I said not out of disrespect, but out of a desire to really know him and his situation.

OK, I guess I better say something. I was not offended by your initial response, Chet, but I can understand how some might be. That you were asking for more from me got lost in the style of your asking. How you interpret what I write is up to you, not me. Whether it meets your standard of "enough" or "sincerity" is up to you, not me. However you label it is up to you, not me. I mean this in the nicest most possible way: I don't care That you cared so much to respond to it is your business, not mine. That being said, we are all Bozos on this bus :wink: so I understand that I am a part of the whole. Anyway, I've reread my post a bunch of times now, far more than it deserves, and I stand by/sit with it as is.

But since you asked so nicely this time that I am able to understand your request, how's this for more: I am bouncing along the Path, sometimes falling down the stairs and other times crawling up the mountain. Once in a while things level out. I have no easy answers for your challenging initial post; therefore, I can give you none :? I just appreciated the opportunity to explore the issue.

Thanks Alan!

I guess part of what draws people to zen is the 'old-timey' talk - 'Moons in Dewdrops' and whatnot. The thing is - The moon in the dewdrop might have been a much more readily available sight to people in Dogen's time. There also might have been a lot more people walking up mountain paths on a more daily basis. 'Chop wood, carry water' - unless you're a rural professional camper, I suspect this is not a regular part of your day...

Reality is immediate. I don't know if there's moon in a dewdrop, but there's fading sunlight casting about through the spaces in the vertical venetian blinds that cover the sliding window from my living room to the patio. I don't know much about chopping wood or carrying water right now, but I do know I have to get showered, dressed, and out the door before KFC closes so I can get some grilled chicken that's compliant with my diet - now that I've shipped out most of my cooking utensils.

Some people are perhaps more drawn to speaking metaphorically - but there are times when metaphor just glosses over the actual reality of our lives....and there isn't anywhere else that reality can be found except in the immediacy of our lives.

Sorry I knocked Alan so hard...

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

To clarify,

"I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way." Wow. That sounds zenny profound! But it's BS. The whole point of calling it useless was to remove from the endeavor the ego's 'what's in it for me' orientation to the whole world. It IS useless because, properly approached, it does that. That the ego wants to claim that and put it in the service of something else is exactly an ass-backward orientation.

I'm not saying that the ego won't try to make use of the uselessness of zazen - but such ego-orientation can begin to seep back into your practice and after awhile you'll wonder why your practice is so unsatisfactory.

Zen and zazen practice are not problem solutions! Zazen is a problem destroyer! - but not in the way you think. It insistently points out that your problem/solution orientation to EVERYTHING is part of what causes your problems. When your ego appropriates 'uselessness' in the service of something - you're exactly NOT understanding what the old teachers were saying.

Wanna get rid of your problems? Throw away your solutions!

IMHO.

Chet

[Dosho]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

To clarify,

"I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way." Wow. That sounds zenny profound! But it's BS. The whole point of calling it useless was to remove from the endeavor the ego's 'what's in it for me' orientation to the whole world. It IS useless because, properly approached, it does that. That the ego wants to claim that and put it in the service of something else is exactly an ass-backward orientation.

I'm not saying that the ego won't try to make use of the uselessness of zazen - but such ego-orientation can begin to seep back into your practice and after awhile you'll wonder why your practice is so unsatisfactory.

Zen and zazen practice are not problem solutions! Zazen is a problem destroyer! - but not in the way you think. It insistently points out that your problem/solution orientation to EVERYTHING is part of what causes your problems. When your ego appropriates 'uselessness' in the service of something - you're exactly NOT understanding what the old teachers were saying.

Wanna get rid of your problems? Throw away your solutions!

IMHO.

Chet

It's not BS Chet...you have the right to say whatever you want, especially when it comes to how you view zen. But cursing people (or their words) just isn't necessary and such a view is hardly humble.

We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it.

It's fine that you don't believe it, but you can't possibly know how most people feel about that. Alan answered your question honestly and while you can disagree, be respectful too....especially if want respect in return.

Gassho,
Dosho

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Dosho,

'Nice-ness' is not the only admirable quality. Also, I didn't 'curse' Alan. I used a curse word in addressing something he said. My first internal reaction was something akin to 'Uyghur, please!'

Alan did not respond in any way that I considered 'honest'. It came off as pretentious - as parroted. Sure, it's 'true', it just doesn't really feel like it's his. Jundo could say something similar and it might not seem as 'borrowed' (although, frankly Jundo - sometimes it does - LOL). You may say that I can't possibly know that most people don't understand that 'Zen is useless', except that Alan immediately illustrated that HE doesn't understand it. I'll bet he thinks he does though. What is your understanding of 'Zen is useless'?

Meanwhile, Dosho - why not add to the conversation instead of just admonishing me for how I'm conducting myself within it? Is your only contribution to be that of an enforcer of civility?

Let us know you Dosho! What's your understanding?

As far as getting respect in turn, my preference is for honesty - even if slightly disrespectful. I did not disrespect Alan - I think he's a great guy. I disrespected his response, however, because honestly - if we 'respect' everything, what meaning does respect even have anymore?

If I post something that makes your BS detector go off - I'm fully endorsing right now that you speak up about it. It would be a disservice not to speak up. And if you think that being a little 'sharp' about it will help drive the point home - so much the better. Just make sure your attacks are on my posts and that they aren't gratuitous and you won't hear any complaining from me.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Chet wrote:
Thanks Alan!

I guess part of what draws people to zen is the 'old-timey' talk - 'Moons in Dewdrops' and whatnot. The thing is - The moon in the dewdrop might have been a much more readily available sight to people in Dogen's time. There also might have been a lot more people walking up mountain paths on a more daily basis. 'Chop wood, carry water' - unless you're a rural professional camper, I suspect this is not a regular part of your day...

Reality is immediate. I don't know if there's moon in a dewdrop, but there's fading sunlight casting about through the spaces in the vertical venetian blinds that cover the sliding window from my living room to the patio. I don't know much about chopping wood or carrying water right now, but I do know I have to get showered, dressed, and out the door before KFC closes so I can get some grilled chicken that's compliant with my diet - now that I've shipped out most of my cooking utensils.

Some people are perhaps more drawn to speaking metaphorically - but there are times when metaphor just glosses over the actual reality of our lives....and there isn't anywhere else that reality can be found except in the immediacy of our lives.

Oh, this is so much better, Chet. Now, here, we are talking. This post actually makes me refine my metaphorical thinking into something more experiential, Very good, thanks. I don't have problems with doubting the dharma; I have great faith and trust in it. For me it's more about confusion. Sometimes it is too much in my head and not enough in my actions. Stopping thinking about it and more doing of it is my struggle, or finding the right balance of the two (one).

As for the other post where you think what I say is BS, I think you read a lot into my few words. I did not fully explain all my inner thoughts and beliefs in that first post (which was part of your problem with it) so I think it risky to try and extrapolate what I meant in those few words about uselessness and usefulness. What you wrote seems more about what those words mean to you, not me, and that's fine as long as you make that distinction.

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Chet wrote:
Thanks Alan!

I guess part of what draws people to zen is the 'old-timey' talk - 'Moons in Dewdrops' and whatnot. The thing is - The moon in the dewdrop might have been a much more readily available sight to people in Dogen's time. There also might have been a lot more people walking up mountain paths on a more daily basis. 'Chop wood, carry water' - unless you're a rural professional camper, I suspect this is not a regular part of your day...

Reality is immediate. I don't know if there's moon in a dewdrop, but there's fading sunlight casting about through the spaces in the vertical venetian blinds that cover the sliding window from my living room to the patio. I don't know much about chopping wood or carrying water right now, but I do know I have to get showered, dressed, and out the door before KFC closes so I can get some grilled chicken that's compliant with my diet - now that I've shipped out most of my cooking utensils.

Some people are perhaps more drawn to speaking metaphorically - but there are times when metaphor just glosses over the actual reality of our lives....and there isn't anywhere else that reality can be found except in the immediacy of our lives.

Oh, this is so much better, Chet. Now, here, we are talking. This post actually makes me refine my metaphorical thinking into something more experiential, Very good, thanks. I don't have problems with doubting the dharma; I have great faith and trust in it. For me it's more about confusion. Sometimes it is too much in my head and not enough in my actions. Stopping thinking about it and more doing of it is my struggle, or finding the right balance of the two (one).

As for the other post where you think what I say is BS, I think you read a lot into my few words. I did not fully explain all my inner thoughts and beliefs in that first post (which was part of your problem with it) so I think it risky to try and extrapolate what I meant in those few words about uselessness and usefulness. What you wrote seems more about what those words mean to you, not me, and that's fine as long as you make that distinction.

It's true - any problems I say I have are on my end - and it's up to you to determine if my response looks true to you...as long as you really go there and look, the dialogue could be called an honest one.

Chet

[Shonin]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

I'd say about all your questions apply to me in some measure.

But, I realized, at the end of the day it's silly to wonder about how or when i'll be enightened or experience kensho. I may engage in flights of fancy from time to time. Wonder what IS Enlightenment? What will I be like if I become Enlightened.

There is a goal, but i try to forget the goal so I can achieve it to realize i've never been without it and the goal and I are not two things. : )

I sit because it makes me feel better. I feel in some way improved and bettered. So I just keep on sitting, to find i just feel more at ease in life. My conciousness could undergo many transitions before I ever experience Enlightenment. So why be impatient? I sit to sit ,and remind myself it's perfect and in some inexplicable way i feel rewarded for just sitting.

Dave

[Jinho]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

While it wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point completely, I'm not sure that such a conclusion may be derived from my previous post.

When I sit, I am enlightened, and when I practice taekwondo, I am a nuclear bomb. But neither of those assertions makes any sense if interpreted in certain (perfectly reasonable) ways.

Actually, your first statement makes PERFECT sense if interpreted reasonably. The second statement is just nonsense. To compare the two statements seems...

Like something someone would say if he was lost in the dark and fumbling to make sense of it.

Chet

So Chet, I have a few questions:
- What is your interpretation which "makes perfect sense"? What are your standards for "reasonably"?
- Why do you judge something is "nonsense" because you don't understand someone else's words? Why not say "I don't understand X, can you please elucidate?"
- The bigger question is why do you think kind speech doesn't apply to you?

But actually - the reality is that you Chet are here to be insulting to people in the name of the "right" to "call people on their bullshit". Clever of you to pick a buddhist setting to practice this.

bye bye
rowan

[Jinho]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

Hi All (and a special hello to my favorite Mouse!)

I have a few secret desires but my desire regarding zen is not secret. I have a very specific goal in doing zazen which is understanding.

cheers,
rowan

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

While it wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point completely, I'm not sure that such a conclusion may be derived from my previous post.

When I sit, I am enlightened, and when I practice taekwondo, I am a nuclear bomb. But neither of those assertions makes any sense if interpreted in certain (perfectly reasonable) ways.

Actually, your first statement makes PERFECT sense if interpreted reasonably. The second statement is just nonsense. To compare the two statements seems...

Like something someone would say if he was lost in the dark and fumbling to make sense of it.

Chet

Actually Chet, none of what you wrote makes sense.

- What is your interpretation which "makes perfect sense"? What are your standards for "reasonably"?
- Why do you judge something is "nonsense" because YOU don't understand someone else's words? Whay not say "I don't understand X, can you please elucidate"
- The bigger question is why do you think kind speech doesn't apply to you?

controversally and sanctimoniuosly yours,
rowan

Rowan,

You are arguing semantics. If we have to argue about what each thing means to each of us and that I can have 'my truth' and you can have 'your truth' then we shouldn't even talk.

You can say 'I am a nuclear bomb' and have it make sense - it's metaphor. The problem is that he linked 'When I sit, I am enlightened' to 'I am a nuclear bomb'. One of these statements is literal, the other metaphorical - and linking them as 'similar' is completely insane. You are not metaphorically enlightened when you sit, and you are not a literal nuclear bomb when you practice a martial art. The most important thing to realize is that when the old zen guys said 'Zen is useless' and 'sitting expresses perfect enlightenment' or 'you are already enlightened' they were not speaking metaphorically.

I am being kind in my speech. I like you guys! I like Alan and I like Dave and I'm pleased as punch that they've chosen to respond to my thread. I have not said 'You are stupid' - I have said 'What you've said is stupid, and here's why.' If I have said 'you are stupid/disingenuous/etc' by mistake, I apologize.

Why do you think 'kind speech' means honoring misconceptions or being gentle with a persons' delusions?

Chet

[Undo]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

It is not what you said but how you said it.

If one of my elderly neighbours is carrying her shopping up the hill I can Say," Hello, do you need a hand with that?"
I can also say," It's stupid you carrying that, give it to me."

Even though this is a written Sangha, other forms of communication are necessary.

Perhaps another way is, if you are trying to help someone understand something, they will learn through kindness and patients. Bad teachers are those who cannot communicate with the person they are talking with.

[disastermouse]

Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

It is not what you said but how you said it.

If one of my elderly neighbours is carrying her shopping up the hill I can Say," Hello, do you need a hand with that?"
I can also say," It's stupid you carrying that, give it to me."

Even though this is a written Sangha, other forms of communication are necessary.

Perhaps another way is, if you are trying to help someone understand something, they will learn through kindness and patients. Bad teachers are those who cannot communicate with the person they are talking with.

Look at Zen history. By your rubric, some of Zen's best teachers were very bad teachers.

Chet