Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

[disastermouse]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
Having sat at a couple of different zendos, all I can say is that our openness here (warts and all) surpasses anything I've experienced there.

Peace,
Bill

Stephanie should know better! I know she still pops in to lurk, and if the Adyashanti thread served any purpose, it should be to show that we are not sycophants. Disagreements are talked out here and Jundo actually responds pretty even-handedly. I wasn't 'poo-poo'd' for disagreeing with 'our esteemed teacher'. I wasn't censored. I wasn't threatened. I felt no pressure to conform and the conversation actually helped me to see Jundo's side of things as I hoped I helped him see my side of things.

Jundo is not a classically 'charismatic' teacher, and I suspect it's a conscious decision. Think about it: we know very few details of Jundo's 'awakening' experiences, or his history, or any of the compelling components of his personal story that might build him up as a charismatic cartoon.

Chet

Gee, Chet ... Where do I send your check? I have never been so happy to be told that I lack "charisma" :?

Actually, if there is anything you would like to know about anything regarding me ... ask away. I did post my biography a couple of times ... although it does not touch on many subjects that you seem to be interested in. There should be no secrets in a group like this about the person purporting to be the 'bus driver'.

viewtopic.php?p=2545#p2545

I have spoken about most of these topics in the past though.

Gassho, J

What I'm saying is that there isn't much 'cult of personality' going on here. Brad's got his 'punk rock dharma' thing going on. Other teachers have the intimacy of their personal story.

I wasn't pointing out any flaws here with that. I have no doubt that your biography and personal story are readily available - my point was, they are not a center-point to the way you teach.

It's more a stylistic difference. It's hard to identify with you as 'my' teacher because there's not much story to cling to. If someone grew up 'punk rock' or rebellious or identifies with the punk ethos - not only would he or she likely be drawn to Brad, the chances of a 'sycophantic' defense relationship would be much higher, because 'when you attack my guru, you attack me' (in that I identify with my teacher). It's the same thing with many other teachers with more ostentatious biographies or ethos-related styles, any number of which may be sub-consciously attractive to a student completely separate from any real usefulness of his or her teachings. Like anything, such sub-conscious attraction can be used for the student's benefit or to their detriment.

I don't feel any compelling need to defend you when you act like a dick. It's just, 'Huh, Jundo was kind of a dick there.' Similarly, when you are compassionate or resonating with something I see - I don't feel any 'pride' at the wisdom of 'my teacher'. It's more like, 'Huh, Jundo's sorta on to something there. Maybe I should look at that.' (You had more influence on me in the Adyashanti thread than you probably realize, for instance).

Maybe that's just me - because I don't really feel drawn to 'gurus'.

Chet

[will]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Here's something Jundo once said to me:

Will: Why did Bodhidharma sit facing a wall for nine years.

Jundo: Yes!

[will]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I see what your saying Chet, and yes it could be detrimental to practice, but watcha gonna do? One person thinks this about you, another person that. You tell them please don't think this, and they end up thinking your even greater and full of humility for having said that. Someone else says "Your a lying sack of shit."

Anything that comes out of a teachers mouth could be seen as this way or that, but what they're pointing to has nothing to do with who is saying it.

It would be in the teacher and students best interest to address these issues when they come up, and they usually are in various ways.

If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha.

As Suzuki was walking out of the building to meet his ride to Los Altos, a woman, at the top of the steps, called out to the driver, "You be careful now; we don't want to lose our treasure!"

Suzuki turned, halfway down the steps, made a loud SMACK! with his hands, and called out, "No more!" He threw his head back and laughed and continued to laugh as the car drove off.

There's an old warning against confusing the great wonderful Absolute Truth with the teacher which goes, "Don't confuse the finger pointing to the moon with the moon." It's as if a fellow came along who pointed to the moon and we just stared at this gentle, kind Oriental man in his brown robe and went, "Wow, far out!" and then he fell over dead and we cried and said words of praise about him and walked off talking about him and never noticed the moon. So here we are all walking around in the moonlight, mumbling and grumbling and bumping into each other. We are a silly lot.

Another thing we do when we go on babbling about how great our teacher's understanding was, is we imply that we are qualified to appraise their understanding. This seems arrogant. When I first met Katagiri and watched him fiddling with his pencil and wondered if an enlightened person would do that and he told me that a teacher was beyond the students judgement, he wasn't telling me that he and Suzuki were beyond karma or making mistakes. He didn't mean that they could have a burglary ring going that I should ignore because their every act was perfect buddha dharma. To me, what he was saying was, "Don't look at me, look at the moon."

We do not know what their understanding was. There is no reason to say they were enlightened, whatever that means, or that they were anything other than our spiritual friends or good friends.

What Suzuki and Katagiri learned and knew, I do not know. I learned from them to have confidence in zazen while sitting, standing and walking, as it is traditionally said. I am thinking and commenting on these people because that is the subject now, but in my life today, I am just as encouraged by family members and my mutually irritating fellow students and by living peers who have all sorts of ways and practices as by the memory of the Japanese teachers whom I have known and loved.

http://www.cuke.com/ty&ok/suzuki%20mentions.html

And so on.


Gassho _/_

[Rich]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Jundo, your brief biography viewtopic.php?p=2545#p2545 was interesting. I wondered what the florida connection was. Imagine a 'charismatic bus driver' - only just drive. Thanks for the bio.

PS Where did you get the Jundo and does it have any special meaning?

[Jundo]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

PS Where did you get the Jundo and does it have any special meaning?

"Chigen Jundo" (Wisdom Source Pure Way) is the Dharma Name that I received from Nishijima Roshi at my Shukke Tokudo (Leaving Home) Ordination. Dharma Names, by the way, are always a bit "tongue in cheek", or are an aspiration for what we hope to be (not what we necessarily are), and my names fit the bill.

As all things in Zen Practice, a name is nothing and is everything, just a name and the only name.

The ordination can be seen here (translated by Google from the French language).

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... n&ie=UTF-8

We were going to do it at the Tokei-In, the root temple of our Lineage ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/tokei-in.html

but we got rained out as I remember. Anyway, because Nishijima Roshi later decided that we needed to cross all the T's and dot all the I's with Japanese Soto-shu, Brad and I and several other of Nishijima's Heirs did it again at Tokei-In a bit later. (I need to scan my photo, but here is Brad's in the meantime from the same ceremony)



Here by the way is a very rare photo (in fact, the only photo) of part of the Dharma Transmission Ceremony a few years later, as Nishijima Roshi bestows the Blood Lineage. Nishijima Roshi is not much for ceremonies, fly whisks, hats and paraphenalia and such, but does make an exception for Jukai, Tokudo and the like.



Gassho, Jundo

[chicanobudista]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

What I want to see are Jundo's Bar Mitzvah photos. :mrgreen:

[Rich]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Very nice pictures, Nishijima's hat is cool. Now I've got go find the wisdom source in a pure way.

[Tb]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I wasn't pointing out any flaws here with that. I have no doubt that your biography and personal story are readily available - my point was, they are not a center-point to the way you teach.

It's more a stylistic difference.

Hi.

So what youre saying is that "the teacher" has no effect on his "teachings"?
But then it does?

Mtfbwy
Tb

[disastermouse]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I wasn't pointing out any flaws here with that. I have no doubt that your biography and personal story are readily available - my point was, they are not a center-point to the way you teach.

It's more a stylistic difference.

Hi.

So what youre saying is that "the teacher" has no effect on his "teachings"?
But then it does?

Mtfbwy
Tb

Huh? I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying that, since Jundo's biography is not prominent, it is not part of the draw to this sangha - at least not on my part.

Chet

[chicanobudista]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Huh? I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying that, since Jundo's biography is not prominent, it is not part of the draw to this sangha - at least not on my part.

I think something go lost in translation. Anywho. I didn't know anything about Jundo when I visited TL for the first time. What got me here was an ad in Tricycle (IIRC) which piqued my interest (and my need to find a Zen teacher who I could ask questions via internet). After my first visit, the open discussion has kept me here.

[Tb]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I wasn't pointing out any flaws here with that. I have no doubt that your biography and personal story are readily available - my point was, they are not a center-point to the way you teach.

It's more a stylistic difference.

Hi.

So what youre saying is that "the teacher" has no effect on his "teachings"?
But then it does?

Mtfbwy
Tb

Huh? I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying that, since Jundo's biography is not prominent, it is not part of the draw to this sangha - at least not on my part.

Chet

Hi.

K.
I agree.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[ZenYen]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I'm new here, but I think I understand what Chet is saying regarding Jundo's teaching style. I've been reading through a lot of threads to catch up, and I have noticed that Jundo joins conversations and teaches along the way ... but he doesn't make it all about him. There's not a lot of "I did this ..." or "I say that ..." He's not constantly tossing his own zen stories out there and making himself a hero in his own narrative, as far as I can tell.

Jundo's personality does come through, and it's a part of how he teaches (in my limited experience thus far), but it seems a sort of gentle guiding personality, with a lot of back-and-forth, as opposed to a more blustery "I'm in charge here" kind of thing, if I'm making any sense. A lot of teaching goes on in these conversations, and sometimes "we" are doing the teaching, not just Jundo. I like it.

In any case, I'm very glad to have found this zendo. Thank you, Jundo, and thanks everyone else.

[Jundo]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I'm new here, but I think I understand what Chet is saying regarding Jundo's teaching style. I've been reading through a lot of threads to catch up, and I have noticed that Jundo joins conversations and teaches along the way ... but he doesn't make it all about him. There's not a lot of "I did this ..." or "I say that ..." He's not constantly tossing his own zen stories out there and making himself a hero in his own narrative, as far as I can tell.

Jundo's personality does come through, and it's a part of how he teaches (in my limited experience thus far), but it seems a sort of gentle guiding personality, with a lot of back-and-forth, as opposed to a more blustery "I'm in charge here" kind of thing, if I'm making any sense. A lot of teaching goes on in these conversations, and sometimes "we" are doing the teaching, not just Jundo. I like it.

In any case, I'm very glad to have found this zendo. Thank you, Jundo, and thanks everyone else.

Okay, you are on my "good" list, Zenyen. I will not ban you today. Keep up the comments like that, and we will get along fine. 8)

[ZenYen]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I'll do my best to stay off the "bad" list, Jundo, but I hear everything changes ... so you never know.

Thanks!

[Tb]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Hi.

I may be bad, but I feel good.

-Evil sheila, Army of darkness (evil dead III)

:lol:

Mtfbwy
Tb