Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

[chicanobudista]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Just to add my dos pesos.

You know. Some of us don't live in Austin where it seems there are at least 30* (!) groups of various sizes and traditions and histories, etc. etc. I am betting folks that live in Houston, NYC, and SF have similar situations. But, I am also betting that most folks are like me. For a while, in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, there was only one group in once city about 45 minutes away from me. This group has no teacher (in the traditional sense). The only groups close *with* a teacher are in Austin....5 hours from here. We formed our own group in San Juan, Texas, but we are also w/o a teacher. E/a one of us do our practice, discuss our practice, but deffer to the "big questions" (or small ones :mrgreen: ) to a teacher in a sangha in another city, either via phone or email. This is where "internet" forums/sanghas play an important role.

Sure face-to-face is great. But. Also the economy of long travel is hampered by the realities of our economy and personal time.


* Based on Austin Zen Center's links to temples and sanghas in the Austin-area.

[Eika]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Just to add my dos pesos.

You know. Some of us don't live in Austin where it seems there are at least 30* (!) groups of various sizes and traditions and histories, etc. etc. I am betting folks that live in Houston, NYC, and SF have similar situations. But, I am also betting that most folks are like me. For a while, in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, there was only one group in once city about 45 minutes away from me. This group has no teacher (in the traditional sense). The only groups close *with* a teacher are in Austin....5 hours from here. We formed our own group in San Juan, Texas, but we are also w/o a teacher. E/a one of us do our practice, discuss our practice, but deffer to the "big questions" (or small ones :mrgreen: ) to a teacher in a sangha in another city, either via phone or email. This is where "internet" forums/sanghas play an important role.

Sure face-to-face is great. But. Also the economy of long travel is hampered by the realities of our economy and personal time.


* Based on Austin Zen Center's links to temples and sanghas in the Austin-area.

I agree. My situation is similar. The closest group with a teacher is at least two and a half hours away, that means five hours there and back. My wife and I have full-time jobs and we have three small children. It is all but impossible for me to meet with a zen-teacher with any regularity. That means that Treeleaf is the closest thing to a brick-and-mortar zendo that I will encounter without taking a trip. I plan on supplementing my practice by attending a sesshin in the summers, but even then, my options are limited by travel, expenses, etc. Treeleaf is my Zen home as best it can be. I don't enjoy every aspect of an online zen experience, but my choices are limited. Others who are here are in the same boat I imagine. Still others are here to dabble (dilettante's zen), and that is cool too, but it can lead to clashes.
Over on Odo's blog there are several comments that suggest that Treeleaf is a watered-down experience. I think that for the dilettantes it would be. I, however, consider myself a serious student, as do many others here as well. I'm trying to have to most authentic practice I can have given the confines of family life and location. Does Treeleaf offer everything that a "real" zendo can? No. Does a "real" zendo offer everything that Treeleaf can offer? Again, no. So like Will said, it boils down to the sincerity of one's practice, the taking advantage of the practice opportunities that are available in one's area, and getting one's rear-end to the zafu.
As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
Having sat at a couple of different zendos, all I can say is that our openness here (warts and all) surpasses anything I've experienced there.

Peace,
Bill

[AlanLa]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Personally, I believe that Zen can never be taught by online/distance/virtual learning, and anything short of fact-to-face is --not-- true human contact. I instruct you never to participate in any online Zendo practice, so it is either face-to-face or nothing.

Anyone who disagrees with me is a fool.

Gassho, Jundo

Ps - Of course, what is "distance" "human contact" "face-to-face" "virtual"?

Now, that is a Koan which only a True Zendo can let one resolve ... while a teacher across the same room from you, or even a millimeter from you, can not even touch it.

Anyone who thinks there is anyone to disagree is a fool.

I think this qualifies as dog-mu :mrgreen:

[chicanobudista]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).

This will be probably be my next to last comment on Steffie here, but......I do wish some folks like the old zen story left the young beautiful woman by the safe side of the river not carry her for miles. Look. Stop carrying Jundo! :mrgreen:

[chicanobudista]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I was going to go into a long post reg. how this is issue is really a recast of a debate that has been part of religion since humanity has discussed religion and day-to-day life, "portable" religion vs. "fixed place" religion.....but...there is a lecture by Lewis Lancaster taped by UCTV that gives a better light to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX2f6QHkU-I[/video]]Burke Lecture: Buddhism in a Global Age of Technology

A distinguished scholar of Buddhism, Lewis Lancaster founded the Electronic Cultural Atlas Initiative to use the latest computer technology to map the spread of various strands of Buddhism from the distant past to the present. Series: "Burke Lectureship on Religion & Society" [6/2008] [Humanities] [Show ID]

You don't have to watch the whole lecture since the key part is at the beginning.

[Shugen]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I have no experience with a bricks and mortar zendo. All I know is that If it were not for Treeleaf's existence, I would have probably completely given up on Zen. As Will said, you have to make the effort; It's all what you put into it. Is Treeleaf perfect? Yes, It is perfectly what it is.("warts and all") I've learned more here in a year and a half, than I had in 10 years of reading "Buddha" books. It has been exactly what I needed, when I needed it.

Ron

[Jundo]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I have no experience with a bricks and mortar zendo. All I know is that If it were not for Treeleaf's existence, I would have probably completely given up on Zen. As Will said, you have to make the effort; It's all what you put into it. Is Treeleaf perfect? Yes, It is perfectly what it is.("warts and all") I've learned more here in a year and a half, than I had in 10 years of reading "Buddha" books. It has been exactly what I needed, when I needed it.

Ron

Thank you, Ron.

Although I always preach that we do this just to do this ... I never pass up hearing some encouraging words too. It is always good to hear from folks that they are getting some aid from all this (in fact, someone usually writes me to say so almost daily now, including many folks who never set foot in this forum yet are sitting with all of us).

And though we accept the "warts and all" ... I am always trying to get those treated. :wink:

Gassho, J

[Shohei]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I have no experience with a bricks and mortar zendo. All I know is that If it were not for Treeleaf's existence, I would have probably completely given up on Zen. As Will said, you have to make the effort; It's all what you put into it. Is Treeleaf perfect? Yes, It is perfectly what it is.("warts and all") I've learned more here in a year and a half, than I had in 10 years of reading "Buddha" books. It has been exactly what I needed, when I needed it.

Ron

Big ditto!

Ill make a trip or too but for daily practice and support treeleaf is it and im very glad.

Gassho Shohei

[Jundo]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

And we can always try to do better.

Even in our way of dropping all idea of "better" ... one can always try to do better.

So, I will keep trying ... with everyone's help ... to make Treeleaf better and better.

This place is just all of us, not two and not three.

[chessie]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I thoroughly enjoy this thread. I'm one to want to see all sides and more of something, and try every new food, or variety of things that comes along, and often don't understand why others don't vary one micron from their path. Off-topic (or on a sharp tangent at any rate) -- Eat a Peach -- reminds me of my favorite poem, The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock -- thanks for the thread, and the reminder, and the smiles brought by both.

g, ann

[will]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

...In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

Gassho

[disastermouse]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
Having sat at a couple of different zendos, all I can say is that our openness here (warts and all) surpasses anything I've experienced there.

Peace,
Bill

Stephanie should know better! I know she still pops in to lurk, and if the Adyashanti thread served any purpose, it should be to show that we are not sycophants. Disagreements are talked out here and Jundo actually responds pretty even-handedly. I wasn't 'poo-poo'd' for disagreeing with 'our esteemed teacher'. I wasn't censored. I wasn't threatened. I felt no pressure to conform and the conversation actually helped me to see Jundo's side of things as I hoped I helped him see my side of things.

Jundo is not a classically 'charismatic' teacher, and I suspect it's a conscious decision. Think about it: we know very few details of Jundo's 'awakening' experiences, or his history, or any of the compelling components of his personal story that might build him up as a charismatic cartoon.

Chet

[will]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Sycophant Zen
Elephant Zen
Her Zen.
His Zen.

Blah, blah, blah

W

[Jundo]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
Having sat at a couple of different zendos, all I can say is that our openness here (warts and all) surpasses anything I've experienced there.

Peace,
Bill

Stephanie should know better! I know she still pops in to lurk, and if the Adyashanti thread served any purpose, it should be to show that we are not sycophants. Disagreements are talked out here and Jundo actually responds pretty even-handedly. I wasn't 'poo-poo'd' for disagreeing with 'our esteemed teacher'. I wasn't censored. I wasn't threatened. I felt no pressure to conform and the conversation actually helped me to see Jundo's side of things as I hoped I helped him see my side of things.

Jundo is not a classically 'charismatic' teacher, and I suspect it's a conscious decision. Think about it: we know very few details of Jundo's 'awakening' experiences, or his history, or any of the compelling components of his personal story that might build him up as a charismatic cartoon.

Chet

Gee, Chet ... Where do I send your check? I have never been so happy to be told that I lack "charisma" :?

Actually, if there is anything you would like to know about anything regarding me ... ask away. I did post my biography a couple of times ... although it does not touch on many subjects that you seem to be interested in. There should be no secrets in a group like this about the person purporting to be the 'bus driver'.

viewtopic.php?p=2545#p2545

I have spoken about most of these topics in the past though.

Gassho, J

[chicanobudista]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Jundo is not a classically 'charismatic' teacher, and I suspect it's a conscious decision. Think about it: we know very few details of Jundo's 'awakening' experiences, or his history, or any of the compelling components of his personal story that might build him up as a charismatic cartoon.

OT....which should make for a new koan

"Why did Jundo leave to the East?"



:mrgreen: