Retuning to the ZZ' line: try vs just do

[Houzan]

In a recent chat with you, Jundo, I asked for advice on how I should try to return to the ZZ’ line while sitting and having wandering thoughts (to others: the ZZ’ line = open awareness - from Uchiyama’s book ‘Opening the Hand of Thought’). Your response was: ‘don’t try, just do. Didn’t really understand it fully there and then. How can you do anything without trying? But have reflected a bit and and I think it’s starting to dawn on me. Could use some feedback on whether I’m getting there

To try to return to the ZZ’ line has a sense of resistance to it. There is some struggle. You want things to be different from what they are. Be somewhere else than where you are. You try to be strong in order to lift heavier things. You try to study hard in order to get a deep understanding. You try to stay or return to the ZZ’ line in order to have a successful sitting. In other words, you try to achieve something.

To just return to the ZZ’ line has a sense of dropping all judgments. When you notice your wandering thoughts, there is no judging, no fault, and no lack of performance. It is all ok. It is all part of the sitting. And you just return to the ZZ’ line. Like a physical reflex. An instinct. Like when you hug your daughter back when she hugs you. Like how you eat when you are hungry and sleep when you are tired. You just return. It is complete acceptance.

To 'try' stands in conflict with shikantaza as a whole and complete action and the ‘nothing more to achieve’. To ‘just do’ does not. No matter how many wandering thoughts we have while sitting we just return to the ZZ’ line. We don’t try. To have this relationship with wandering thoughts (the ‘just do’) during sitting seems to be a key aspect.

Does this seem like a reasonable understanding? All comments are welcome

Sorry for running long.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Tairin]

It has been a while since I read that book but my recollection is that ZZ’ is a mainline with branches of thoughts leading off it. In that case the very fact you catch yourself in thoughts brings you back to ZZ’. There really is nothing to try doing.

I am sure someone will come along and say this more eloquently


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Houzan]

Retuning to the ZZ' line: try vs just do

Thank you, Tairin. I see your point. When I use the expression ‘try’ I somehow unconsciously want to stay at the ZZ’ line. But when I let this ‘wanting’ go there really is no trying to be done, only just returning to the ZZ’ line.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Jundo]

Perhaps you are overanalyzing, Michael.

There is a very clear parallel here to staying upright on a two wheel bike. It is child's play. One relaxes, and it is so. An engineer or physicist could make more of it, but it is basically balance and not thinking it. Nor does one stay perfectly at some fictional ZZ', but rather, just rides left and right, all the bumps and twists.

Relax, just sit ... in the perfection of sitting. What is the perfection of sitting? What is the perfection of bike riding?

We do not sit or ride for some destination, but just ride for riding's sake. The ride is the arrival.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Guest]

We bring an intention to Zasen. As Jundo says, like in riding the bike. In this way, we bring an intention to ride the bike. In Zazen, we bring the intention to sit. But, it is not a goal oriented intention. When we sit, we just sit for the sake of sitting. It is a sacred act because when we sit, we are not doing anything, and in the wisdom of doing nothing, everything is complete in that moment. With intention, we are reminding ourselves that this is what we are doing (even if it is really doing nothing at all). We do it, because it is the doing of a Buddha. When we are sitting with everything just as it is, then we are adding nothing extra and when nothing extra is added, we manifest the completeness of everything right there in that moment. Even if unpleasant sensations or thoughts come up, that is in the completeness...if pleasant thoughts, that too is in the completeness. There is a difference between getting caught up in the content of thoughts and feelings and just being with thoughts and feelings. In that being, in that noticing, everything is perfect and complete just as it is. As Uchiyama points out, during Zazen all the thoughts and feelings that come up are the scenery of zazen. So, we just watch all of it, and even the watching is part of the scenery. I am the scene and the scenery in all of Zazen.

Gassho,

Daiman
St

[vanbui]

We bring an intention to Zasen. As Jundo says, like in riding the bike. In this way, we bring an intention to ride the bike. In Zazen, we bring the intention to sit. But, it is not a goal oriented intention. When we sit, we just sit for the sake of sitting. It is a sacred act because when we sit, we are not doing anything, and in the wisdom of doing nothing, everything is complete in that moment. With intention, we are reminding ourselves that this is what we are doing (even if it is really doing nothing at all). We do it, because it is the doing of a Buddha. When we are sitting with everything just as it is, then we are adding nothing extra and when nothing extra is added, we manifest the completeness of everything right there in that moment. Even if unpleasant sensations or thoughts come up, that is in the completeness...if pleasant thoughts, that too is in the completeness. There is a difference between getting caught up in the content of thoughts and feelings and just being with thoughts and feelings. In that being, in that noticing, everything is perfect and complete just as it is. As Uchiyama points out, during Zazen all the thoughts and feelings that come up are the scenery of zazen. So, we just watch all of it, and even the watching is part of the scenery. I am the scene and the scenery in all of Zazen.

Gassho,

Daiman
St

Wonderful elucidation of zazen. Such clarity and wisdom. Much gassho.

Gassho,
Van
Satlah
[emoji120]


Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

We bring an intention to Zasen. As Jundo says, like in riding the bike. In this way, we bring an intention to ride the bike. In Zazen, we bring the intention to sit. But, it is not a goal oriented intention. When we sit, we just sit for the sake of sitting. It is a sacred act because when we sit, we are not doing anything, and in the wisdom of doing nothing, everything is complete in that moment. With intention, we are reminding ourselves that this is what we are doing (even if it is really doing nothing at all). We do it, because it is the doing of a Buddha. When we are sitting with everything just as it is, then we are adding nothing extra and when nothing extra is added, we manifest the completeness of everything right there in that moment. Even if unpleasant sensations or thoughts come up, that is in the completeness...if pleasant thoughts, that too is in the completeness. There is a difference between getting caught up in the content of thoughts and feelings and just being with thoughts and feelings. In that being, in that noticing, everything is perfect and complete just as it is. As Uchiyama points out, during Zazen all the thoughts and feelings that come up are the scenery of zazen. So, we just watch all of it, and even the watching is part of the scenery. I am the scene and the scenery in all of Zazen.

Gassho,

Daiman
St

Nice to know that someone gets the message.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Mokuso]

As jundo and daiman write, is so well described. I myself have started to sit zazen in the living room. Not alone in a room. It is really fascinating how zazen expresses itself with children who play, scream and come climbing on their backs. To just be present in sitting and not grasping at anything. To just let it be as it is. Zazen is part of life. Life is part of zazen. Sit in the moment. Live in the moment .

Gassho. Mokuso

[Guest]

Nice to know that someone gets the message.

Gassho, J

stlah

For the time being someone gets the message. Can't promise anything in the next moment, but I vow to practice sincerely in this moment and all successive moments.

For the time being mind arrives, but words do not.
For the time being words arrive, but mind does not.
For the time being both mind and words arrive.
For the time being neither mind nor words arrive.

[Houzan]

Thank you, Jundo and all for your feedback [emoji120] Seems I’m way off. For now I’ll drop trying to understand the ocean. I’ll just swim.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Jundo]

The folks above say it so well, better than me here.

This ZZ' is not a target to make an effort to get to, stay and hold and "then we go it!."

Rather, it is just the continuing practice of not being tangled in our thoughts, letting the "thought train" go by without jumping on board. If anything, this "not jumping on board" is a "non-action" ... not doing something, rather than doing something we usually do. Yes, if having trouble to really untangle from storming thoughts, one might focus on breath or (as Uchiyama liked) posture or such, or (as I recommend) "open awareness" when one can ... but it is really a "non-doing," rather than another task to do.

But, as I always remind folks, this "letting go of thoughts," sitting in a balanced, stable and comfortable way, breathing naturally from the diaphragm and such are all necessary aspects of Shikantaza, but they are not themselves the real "spice" of Shikantaza ...

... and the real "power" of Shikantaza is the aspect of sitting in radical equanimity, sitting for sitting's sake, no other place to go and nothing more to do in the time of sitting, nothing to add or take away from the completion of sitting itself, a moment of sitting being a moment of Buddha Sitting. Such attitude must be subtly held deep in the bones.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Houzan]

Thank you [emoji120]

Gassho, Michael

[Chikyou]

I have a question and this seems as good a place to ask as any; does anyone else actually find it easier to sit Zazen in a somewhat noisy environment? When I am alone in quiet solitude, I find that my thoughts are often running rampant until I notice and return, however, when there is some background noise (birds, rain, construction a block away, etc) I find that my attention naturally rests there (a passive resting, not an active focusing) and thouts don't go running nearly as often. I guess my open spacious awareness works better when there's something to be aware of.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Guest]

Retuning to the ZZ' line: try vs just do

I have a question and this seems as good a place to ask as any; does anyone else actually find it easier to sit Zazen in a somewhat noisy environment? When I am alone in quiet solitude, I find that my thoughts are often running rampant until I notice and return, however, when there is some background noise (birds, rain, construction a block away, etc) I find that my attention naturally rests there (a passive resting, not an active focusing) and thouts don't go running nearly as often. I guess my open spacious awareness works better when there's something to be aware of.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

Having sounds may certainly paint the landscape of zazen in different ways and maybe that may be interesting to the mind at the time.

In zazen we bring our attention to each thing that comes up because that is an intimacy with the fullness of the present moment awareness that is already here.

What might be interesting to notice is something that may also be showing up in this present moment is an aversion to the silence or attachment to sound.

In Shikantaza, we would notice that the attachment and the aversion are also present and not separate from this present moment experience. When we notice that, it is not a "problem" but simply an observation. In that, all things are perfect and complete whether the surrounding activity includes a perception of sound or a perception of silence and the possible aversion or attachment to this.

When I run into this in zazen I realize that there is no place that silence exists and no place where sound exists. Nor is there any place were silence does not exist nor a place where sound does not exist.

Sometimes there may be an urge to get to a place of sound or get to a place of silence. But where is the place where there is neither sound or no sound...silence or no silence?

Perhaps we can find that the whole universe is sound, and realize there is no place to get a foothold where we are immersed in it or escape from it. Also, we may find that whole universe is silence, and find no sure place to be immersed in it or escape from it.

The whole universe is just like this, today is Saturday and the wind chimes out side of the window go ding... ding...ding.

Gassho,

Daiman
St/LAH

[Heiso]

I have a question and this seems as good a place to ask as any; does anyone else actually find it easier to sit Zazen in a somewhat noisy environment? When I am alone in quiet solitude, I find that my thoughts are often running rampant until I notice and return, however, when there is some background noise (birds, rain, construction a block away, etc) I find that my attention naturally rests there (a passive resting, not an active focusing) and thouts don't go running nearly as often. I guess my open spacious awareness works better when there's something to be aware of.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

I'm not sure I find it easier to sit in a noisier environment but I've noticed that over the years I've become less concerned about being in absolute silence. When I first started the sound of a car passing the Zen centre I was then a member of would frustrate me. Today I sat with the sound of an angle grinder working away next door and have previously sat on the train during my commute and it's not a big issue.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah