Soto and Rinzai

[prg5001]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

So which one did Bodhidharma bring?

:lol:

Cheers,

Paul

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

So which one did Bodhidharma bring?

Tea and Kung Fu. And Daruma dolls.



:!:

[Keishin]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

some games are fun to play

a game is not so much fun when you do not know how it is played

enigmatic zen speech (EZS) is an e z game to learn to play, or play along with

I think somewhere way back when in a recorded talk of Alan Watts' I stumbled what may be the basic rule described thusly: when someone makes a metaphorical statement, the response is a concrete here and now statement, and the response to a concrete statement is a metaphor.
Perhaps there are better ways to describe the alternating statements, but I can't think very eloquently right now so

So, someone saying something which does not pertain to Right Now What Is In Front Of You, but rather in Broad Generalized Sweeping Statement, With Or Without Poetic Imagery, will get a RNWIIFOY response and a RNWIIFOY statement will elicit a BGSSWOWPI response.

Try this out for yourself. It's a little like the game non-sequiturs from Rosencranz and Guildenstern Are Dead by Tom Stoppard

When you think of these monks all living together with no electronic devices for amusement, and there was only so much dusting and sweeping to be done in a place with little furniture....one finds ways to entertain oneself and ones companions.

[Tobiishi]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

And the best thing about playing the game this way is that any monk can just walk away, and the others will just assume he is going to sit!

[Eika]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

I think somewhere way back when in a recorded talk of Alan Watts' I stumbled what may be the basic rule described thusly: when someone makes a metaphorical statement, the response is a concrete here and now statement, and the response to a concrete statement is a metaphor.
Perhaps there are better ways to describe the alternating statements, but I can't think very eloquently right now so

So, someone saying something which does not pertain to Right Now What Is In Front Of You, but rather in Broad Generalized Sweeping Statement, With Or Without Poetic Imagery, will get a RNWIIFOY response and a RNWIIFOY statement will elicit a BGSSWOWPI response.

Thanks, Keishin. Very nice take on "zenspeak." Reminds me a bit of the way Nishijima deconstructs Dogen's text by looking for 4-step pattern.


Gassho,
Bill

[chicanobudista]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

.

[Tobiishi]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

.

@

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Yeah, but Alan Watts was a drunk, which makes it easier to be amused by word games.

[Keishin]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Alan Watts described himself as a 'philosophical entertainer.'

The role of whatever substance dependency or addiction he might have had may or may not have figured into the fun of playing with words.
I don't know about any of that.
He was not a zen teacher, though there are many zen teachers who are reported to have been 'drunks.'

[Jinho]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

I think maybe by word games you mean people saying things that are nonesense?

So I am still waiting to hear these so-called word games? And where have you heard people going on and on about how wonderful Mu is? Koan study is very rare (MAYBE a dozen places in the USA offer it). I use to attend ZCLA where many people were doing koan study and I didn't hear anyone say anything like that. Have you been reading gateless gate over and over :wink: ?

cheers,
rowan

[chicanobudista]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

I think maybe by word games you mean people saying things that are nonesense?

So I am still waiting to hear these so-called word games?

Unfortunately (or maybe not :mrgreen: ), in forums, those thread get deleted.

[Shohei]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

And where have you heard people going on and on about how wonderful Mu is? Koan study is very rare (MAYBE a dozen places in the USA offer it). I use to attend ZCLA where many people were doing koan study and I didn't hear anyone say anything like that. Have you been reading gateless gate over and over :wink: ?

cheers,
rowan

Hiya Rowan

I was talking mostly about what i read. Im too remote to hear much "in person". thats why im here! For reference id say just the way i read some of Aitken Roshi's writings and a few persons postings on some forums.. ZFI maybe??. As it stands I read a koan and read commentary on it after then think about it. thats all i can do right now and im sure im missing the point (as you already said about cultural differences and my lack of previous exposure to much of it) Oh and I usually dont read many books (damn internet) but since starting practice i read a lot more. That said I havent read enough books to warrant re-reading any of em! So you did koan practice yes? I'd really like to hear more of it if you wouldnt mind sharing. either here or pm, of course if you dont mind ops:

Gassho, Shohei