Soto and Rinzai

[Shui_Di]

Hi every body....

We know that there is two school in Zen, Rinzai and Soto.

Rinzai with Koan, and Soto with Shikantaza...

I'm just Curious, which one Bodhidharma really brought from India....

or maybe he brought nothing...

In my addition, some who see Zen as Rinzai or Soto, don't really see what Zen is...
In Zen, there is no Rinzai or Soto...

Gassho, Mujo

[Myoshin]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

In my addition, some who see Zen as Rinzai or Soto, don't really see what Zen is...
In Zen, there is no Rinzai or Soto...

Perfectly said, at least in my opinion.

Gassho,
Kyle

[Taigu]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

And yet, there is also this and that. As Jundo always says, it comes in many flavors. But it is definitely ici cream (that's mine).
It is true that Dogen received the transmission in the Rinzai lineage. And Dogen did not want distinctions to be made. It was either Buddhist or non Buddhist. Usually, rinzai monks end up just doing Shikantaza.
Nevertheless...In my very limited opinion, saying that there is no difference or saying there is difference are both not complete. Don't you think?
It depends how you look at it. Can you taste the difference between the water of this spring and that spring. I think we all can. And yet we all know it is water.

In my addition, some who see Zen as Rinzai or Soto, don't really see what Zen is...

And clearly, clearly, I don't have a clue what Zen is. By the way, do we need to see what Zen is or give up the idea that anything is missing or extra? Do we need to pick up the right Dharma or just practice the backward step?
Clearly, clearly, Genjokoan is for people like me an excellent remedy

gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hi Shui,

I see you are dropping in again and leaving a wonderful Koan!

Actually, both "Soto" and "Rinzai" love Koans. We approach Koans in the same way, with the "non-thinking" mind, to pierce through the words and behind the words.

There are some differences in how we handle Zazen ... "Just Sitting" Shikantaza and "Kan'na Zazen" (Zazen with the mind focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan) ... Soto tends to drop away all thoughts, Koans or not, and see the action of sitting as the ultimate Koan realized ...

... and sometimes a difference in how we see the objective ... the "no objective objective" of Shikantaza and the "objective all to realize there is no objective" of Koan Zazen (which also has more of an emphasis on "Kensho" breakthoughs, large and small and in many flavors ... although Soto folks have those too, kinda by accident and naturally, small and large and in many flavors :P ...)

Anyway, the differences are about how we hold the racket, otherwise same game of "nothing to achieve, and ultimately no net" tennis. Some people may be better suited in their body-mind to holding the racket one way, other people to holding it another way.

Sameness, but small difference. Different but the same.

Gassho, J

[Keishin]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hellos to those posting here!
I've had the opportunity to sit with groups of both Rinzai and Soto lineage as well as White Plum Asangha (Maezumi lineage), which is a mixture of the two plus a third .
When I first started sitting I knew nothing about anything. I highly recommend it as a way to start. Each of us with our own very unique lives and our own circumstances and settings will not be dissuaded from what we come to realize is the only thing we can do: this practice. We are lucky to live in a period of time where finding a teacher, finding a place to practice even if not easy, is not impossible. We are lucky!
Sit with rinzai, sit with soto, sure!

Are you your mother's child? or your father's child? Are you a descendent of your mother's ancestors or your father's ancestors?
My first teacher, Soto; but my practice was beautifully nurtured for 7 years sitting with a dharma heir of Maezumi Roshi, and it was after a trip to attend 7 day sesshin at Sogen-ji (Rinzai, Shodo Harada Roshi), that I KNEW I needed to find the footsteps of my first teacher, Matsuoka Roshi.
So I only know everything so far has been very helpful for continuing the practice.

In gratitude for all teachers past, present and future of all lineages!

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

It's my understanding that outside of Japan just about every lineage is Linji/rinzai and the ascedency of Caodong/Soto in Japan as a seperate and equally powerful sect is based mainly on certain historical factors. There's not much of a distinction in China; Master Sheng Yen traced his zen through both Linji and Caodong and wasn't unique in this regard. There's an excellent chance that Bodhidharma was a myth, but if the teachings attributed to him resonate with you, I don't see that they're any less valid. I think some of the official story of Buddhism is mythical also (how likely is it that Gautama just plain didn't know people got old, sick, and died before he left Kosala palace?), but the basic method is (sometimes literally) a lifesaver.

[Jinho]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hi every body....



I'm just Curious, which one Bodhidharma really brought from India....

or maybe he brought nothing...

In my addition, some who see Zen as Rinzai or Soto, don't really see what Zen is...
In Zen, there is no Rinzai or Soto...

Gassho, Mujo

Gassho Mujo,

As to your first comment, this brings up the fallacy of "authenticity by attribution".

Coincidentally, the bookclub book mentions "there is no northern or southern school" which I have thought meant that there is only the great Reality (this is me putting it Very badly).

For a long time I was very intellectually upset at the idea of two different kinds of zen practice - koan zazen and shikantaza. I thought this just cannot be! So I then had the realization that it is all koan practice, and that the koan of shikantaza is "This Moment" (only without the words, of course). But of course there is the other side, that zazen is always shikantaza - being absolutely in this space, this moment and if your self is filled with a particular question (MU, one hand clapping, what am I, or even just "??????" etc) then that is part of your zazen because it is right here, right now. Of course there are also the differences between koan zazen and shikantaza, as is also mentioned in the bookclub book on the Sandokai - everything is both completely one and completely separate. Again coincidentally, in the book "the Zen Koan" by sasaki(?) and Miura(?), the system of koans are separated into three types - first the koans dealing with the oneness of all phenomena, then with the difference of all dharmas, then with experiencing/understanding the simultaneity of oneness and separateness.

I think that Rinzai and Soto are different techniques. Although I can only speak from reading, all the books I have read talk about the same zen, the same understanding. But maybe that is because I read the medieval chinese, korean and Japanese writers

As a very nice soto teacher said to me when I asked about koan study, he said he thought his teacher would say "where is there not koan?" And when I asked "what is shikantaza?" he said "it is the roaring stream which flows through everything". (which I thought was truly superb)

thank you for your time,
gassho,
rowan

[prg5001]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

To stretch Jundo's allegory:

Gautama figured out how to play tennis.
Bodhidharma showed the Chinese people how to play.

We just need to keep practicing the swings.

Cheers,

Paul

[Shui_Di]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Thanks Jundo and Taigu and also to others folks...

Thank you for your replies, and I'm sorry for replying lately. I was really busy this week...

Hmm.... I agree that there are soto's method and rinzai's method....

but there is no Soto zen or Rinzai Zen...

but ... some times there is also no Zen.

Gassho, Mujo

[Chogetsu]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Just to add a quick question.

Didn't Soto already exist in China before Dogen?

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Didn't Soto already exist in China before Dogen?

Yeah, Dogen "just" brought it to Japan.

[Tb]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hi.

ask yourself, what is "before" and "after".

And "what" "soto" did Dogen "bring"?

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Well, by "after", I mean, was chronologically preceded by another event. By "before", I mean chronologically precedes another event. The "what" is the Soto method. Soto was a different method that did not trace itself to the teachings of Huang Po and Linji, and which did not exist in Japan. Dogen went and studied in Japan, learned this method, and brought it back.

Sorry if that's too clear and straightforward and not "zen" enough.

[Jundo]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hi Mr. Rebel,

Oh, you were clear enough.

Fugen just performs an incredibly valuable service around here. You will get used to him. He throws a most welcome pie in all our faces when any of us start to take things too seriously, or when we start to see things in only a few narrow ways. I really want to say "thank you" for that.

If you say the cat has whiskers, he will tell you it is a dog. And it is.

Gassho, Jundo who takes it all too seriously sometimes

PS- I still wish you would pick a name, though just a name, that is less a handle. Every time I read one of your posts, I want to listen to fiddle music! :wink:

[will]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Every time I read one of your posts, I want to listen to fiddle music!

LOL