Soto and Rinzai

[chicanobudista]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

My pet peeve in zen forums is this type of discussion:

Poster A - Hi guys. New to meditation. I am glad this forum exists. Just a quick question. In my zendo, we have Kuan Yin statues. Is she some type of Zen goddess? Sorry if it sounds uniformed.

Poster B - The moon shines in the water. Where does the water shine?

P. A - Yeaaaaah...well... ok...so..but what about my question.

P. C - Dogen said something like this self does not exist, no in or out.

P. A - OK, but my question was the statue.

P. B - You are a goodess.

P. A. - Ok. No. I am dude. So. On Statue. ?

P. C. - "Dude" what is this that you call "dude"? Buddha said there is no "dude".

Mod - Ok. I am locking this thread.

[will]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Poster A - Hi guys. New to meditation. I am glad this forum exists. Just a quick question. In my zendo, we have Kuan Yin statues. Is she some type of Zen goddess? Sorry if it sounds uniformed.

Poster B - The moon shines in the water. Where does the water shine?

P. A - Yeaaaaah...well... ok...so..but what about my question.

P. C - Dogen said something like this self does not exist, no in or out.

P. A - OK, but my question was the statue.

P. B - You are a goodess.

P. A. - Ok. No. I am dude. So. On Statue. ?

P. C. - "Dude" what is this that you call "dude"? Buddha said there is no "dude".

Mod - Ok. I am locking this thread.

LOL

Gassho

[Tb]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Fugen
Sorry if I had that pegged wrong.

Hi.

No worries, all part of the practice.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Jundo]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

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'Tis all just the finger pointing at the moon ...
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[Tobiishi]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Its 4:50 am, I'm still on my first cup of coffee... literally still waking up... and I see that ^... too early to laugh, but when I just start giggling for no reason today, and my wife asks what's up, what am I gonna say? :lol: (If I hadn't already dropped off all urges to label people ( :wink: ) I would say Jundo is a 'wiley instigator')

gassho

[Jundo]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

That's my version of "Master Gutei's One Finger" (Wu-Men Kuan - Case 03) ...

Whatever he was asked about Zen, Master Gutei simply stuck up one finger.

[Shugen]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

:lol:

[Jundo]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

I hope I did not offend. But I am Brad Warner's Dharma Brother, after all. :roll:

[Dojin]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

that was beautiful

[Jinho]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

The cock crows at midnight, the rabbit leaps at dawn. Clouds part, and the mountains first become visible.

(Like that)? :wink:

Um, so what is incomprehensible about the above? Really, I don't get the problem.

gassho,
rowan

[Jinho]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Jundo
Yeah, pretty much. My rule of thumb is, can you picture David Carradine saying it on Kung Fu? If so, probably better to let the moment pass in silence.

Jinho
Yes, exactly, context is everything. I have no problem with people who quote the old masters when appropriate, or who say things that can be difficult to grasp. But we should try to understand why they said what they said. When people do the whole iconoclastic zen bit inspired by say, Linji, they often forget that he was dealing with a very formalized, quasi-Confucian Buddhist establishment, and was trying to shake it out of its stupor. We've never had such a construct here, so when people try to act crazy and disregard structure like Linji, they miss the bigger picture (in my humble opinion).

Will
Zen speak has kind of become like stoner humor to me; I don't have a moral objection to it, I've just heard too much to enjoy it anymore. Dogen definitely says some very difficult and challenging things; but I don't believe he was ever deliberately making something more obscure than it actually was. Zen speak often has that effect (as does academic jargon, but that's a whole 'nother story).

Hi again,

I don't think Linji was trying to shake anybody out of anything, he (and all the other medieval zen/chan writers I have read) said very clear things. Their writings are very direct (though in some cases the cultural references are particular to that time and place, comparable to me calling someone "a cow"). But I think that most often on this forum people are being playful (except maybe for Fugen's eternal "ask yourself....")

However I just got the joke, what with you being named Mountaintop.

thanks,
rowan

[will]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

The cock crows at midnight, the rabbit leaps at dawn. Clouds part, and the mountains first become visible.

(Like that)? :wink:

Um, so what is incomprehensible about the above? Really, I don't get the problem.

gassho,
rowan

Unless it's metaphorical, it's one of the most straight forward and sensible phrases I've heard.

Gassho

[Shohei]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

interesting turn on this thread.

Jundos finger pointing at the moon was priceless as i scrolled down :lol:

On out zenning and stuff

Maybe the out-zenning or zennier than thou that you see in "American" ( can we just say Modern Zen...its every wheres and if you check members list you will see that this Sangha is truly a global gathering) is often really your own creation. I get what was said about out zenning. I offer this though: if i took every post as an attempt to 1 up me then EVERY post would be so, and really, do i need to compare my self to anyone else here? It doesnt usuall help, so i learn(er well I am learning) to just let that go.

A good idea in this medium is to read ALL posts as and attempt to offer sincere, kind and helpful answers or ideas. If a post or poster gets your goat perhaps you should talk with them directly. open up. Seriously we (me included) all have days where shit rubs us the wrong way. Im so sick of hearing about mu some days that passing a dairy farm just makes want to punch a cow for Muuuuu -ing at me!! (lol of course im being an idiot here but you get the point, I hope) That cow was just being a helpful cow at that moment. I created its mockery of me and my "level" of zen**

We, as a group will have our differences etc as any group gathering will have but for the sake of practice and benefit of all we need to set our petty complaints aside.
NOW to make an obscure quote from the Shobogenzo, and thus solidifying my place as Johny come lately, newb with a copy of the Shobogenzo -

The members of the Hall should harmonize like milk and water, and should wholeheartedly promote each others practice of the truth. Now we are for the present as guests and hosts, but in future we will forever be Buddhist patriarchs. So now that each of us is meeting what is hard to meet, and is practicing what is hard to practice, we must not lose our sincerity. This sincerity is called the body-and-mind of the Buddhist patriarchs; it inevitably becomes Buddha and becomes a patriarch. We have already left our home towns [in our cases here at Treeleaf i would say our usual place of thinking and being??]; we rely on clouds and rely on waters. The benevolence of the members of this Sangha, in promoting each others health and in promoting each others practice, surpasses even that of a father and mother. A father and mother are only parents for the short span between life and death, but the members of this Sangha will be friends in the Buddha's truth forever.

Not to come off as preachy here either... Id better go sit!

Gassho, Shohei

**FWIW i work with koans off the cushion throughout the day and just before bed. Im very new reading "The Gateless Barrier Zen comments on the Mumonkan" and my point is i get frustrated with it sometimes and hearing some one talk about the wonderous Mu! makes me growl under my breath. not their problem... its mine and i remember to look at it under the right lens and i see my view is skewed by my own clouds.

[Bansho]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hi Shohei,

Beautifully said - thank you.

Gassho
Bansho

[Tobiishi]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

This thread, like several others recently, has gone from something simple to something almost accidentally profound, simply by being built by all the diverse personalities in our sangha... I appreciate all your thoughts and thanks for contributing!

This concludes Tobiah's Sesame Street Interlude

Gassho