Soto and Rinzai

[Tb]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hi Mr. Rebel,

Oh, you were clear enough.

Fugen just performs an incredibly valuable service around here. You will get used to him. He throws a most welcome pie in all our faces when any of us start to take things too seriously, or when we start to see things in only a few narrow ways. I really want to say "thank you" for that.

If you say the cat has whiskers, he will tell you it is a dog. And it is.

Hi.

Does that make him an "good troll"? :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Bansho]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hi Fugen,

Hi Mr. Rebel,

Oh, you were clear enough.

Fugen just performs an incredibly valuable service around here. You will get used to him. He throws a most welcome pie in all our faces when any of us start to take things too seriously, or when we start to see things in only a few narrow ways. I really want to say "thank you" for that.

If you say the cat has whiskers, he will tell you it is a dog. And it is.

Hi.

Does that make him an "good troll"? :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Mtfbwy
Tb

Ask yourself: what is good? What is a troll? What is a good troll vs. a bad troll?

Any way you put it, Fugen is definitely not a troll in my book. :!:

Gassho
Bansho

[Tb]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Hi Fugen,

Hi Mr. Rebel,

Oh, you were clear enough.

Fugen just performs an incredibly valuable service around here. You will get used to him. He throws a most welcome pie in all our faces when any of us start to take things too seriously, or when we start to see things in only a few narrow ways. I really want to say "thank you" for that.

If you say the cat has whiskers, he will tell you it is a dog. And it is.

Hi.

Does that make him an "good troll"? :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Mtfbwy
Tb

Ask yourself: what is good? What is a troll? What is a good troll vs. a bad troll?

Any way you put it, Fugen is definitely not a troll in my book. :!:

Gassho
Bansho

Hi.

Hey, i've been "fugenised" twice in one day...
Actually i had a friend of mine laughingly explain what an "internettroll" was for me.
And he's still smiling about it every time we meet.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Well, nothing wrong with fiddle music but fair enough. Call me Shel or Shelby then?

And nothing against Fugen, but I have to admit an allergy to ezs (enigmatic zen speak). I know language is limited but it works a lot better when we don't deliberately obfuscate things by being deliberately cryptic. One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

[disastermouse]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Well, nothing wrong with fiddle music but fair enough. Call me Shel or Shelby then?

And nothing against Fugen, but I have to admit an allergy to ezs (enigmatic zen speak). I know language is limited but it works a lot better when we don't deliberately obfuscate things by being deliberately cryptic. One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

"This guy's more Zen than me!"

[chicanobudista]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

"Are you trying to out-zen me, ese?!"
:mrgreen:

[Tb]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Well, nothing wrong with fiddle music but fair enough. Call me Shel or Shelby then?

And nothing against Fugen, but I have to admit an allergy to ezs (enigmatic zen speak). I know language is limited but it works a lot better when we don't deliberately obfuscate things by being deliberately cryptic. One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

Hi.

Yes, words are very useful.
And i don't think anyone is trying to outzen anyone here, just helping along the way...
At least that goes for me...

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Jinho]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Well, nothing wrong with fiddle music but fair enough. Call me Shel or Shelby then?

And nothing against Fugen, but I have to admit an allergy to ezs (enigmatic zen speak). I know language is limited but it works a lot better when we don't deliberately obfuscate things by being deliberately cryptic. One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

Hi,

Could you please give me an example of enigmatic zen speak. Perhaps I can translate for you?

cheers,
rowan
who is SOOOOOOOOOO happy she got her antibiotics :mrgreen:

[chicanobudista]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

In my sangha, since most are "new" practitioners, "out zenning" someone usually get's you " :evil: " looks. If there is a question, you get a direct short answer :wink: I think you see this more often in forums. When we had a retreat, a visiting zen teacher spoke to the point.

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Dm
Yeah, pretty much.

Chicano Budista
"Don't you know I'm loco?" :wink: And yeah, it's more of an online thing but does crop up in the rl.

Fugen
Sorry if I had that pegged wrong.

Jinho
EZS tends to take three main forms in my experience; bringing up an old zen anecdote (usually out of context) that we've all heard a million times to derail an actual conversation (e.g., "shitstick!"), throwing a bunch of "what's really real" rhetoric out (which is what I assumed was what Fugen was doing), or performing some non-sequitur action to show how wildly, spontaneously zen they are. I usually know WHAT it means, I just find it generally sort of pretentious and unhelpful. If I'm truly perplexed at some point, though, I'll give you a hollar.

[Jundo]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

The cock crows at midnight, the rabbit leaps at dawn. Clouds part, and the mountains first become visible.

(Like that)? :wink:

[chicanobudista]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

The cock crows at midnight, the rabbit leaps at dawn. Clouds part, and the mountains first become visible.

(Like that)? :wink:

Just to clarify, I didn't write that, it was Mountaintop Rebel .

But...let me give you my sangha look... " :evil: "


:mrgreen:

[Jinho]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Jinho
EZS tends to take three main forms in my experience; bringing up an old zen anecdote (usually out of context) that we've all heard a million times to derail an actual conversation (e.g., "shitstick!"), throwing a bunch of "what's really real" rhetoric out (which is what I assumed was what Fugen was doing), or performing some non-sequitur action to show how wildly, spontaneously zen they are. I usually know WHAT it means, I just find it generally sort of pretentious and unhelpful. If I'm truly perplexed at some point, though, I'll give you a hollar.

I often mention other people's words (e.g. "putting a head on top of another head") because they are the best expression of something I want to express and are very meaningful to me. Of course, certain elements of medieval Chan stories are not comprehensible now as we don't have the same cultural associations (e.g. lion and serpent as in "lion before and serpent behind", or Chao Cho (Joshu) putting his shoes on his head when he hear's about Nanchuan killing the cat). I do find Fugen's "ask yourself..."'s very irritating and I am trying to figure our why !? His remark is certainly a central point in all zen/chan philosophy, so I don't know why I get agitated (some thing from my past or something).

thank you for reading this ramble.....
rowan
who might not be as better as she thinks she is

[will]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other

Yeeeah. But come on. There's nothing wrong with a little fun. As long as it doesn't go too far and that's all anybody ever talks about for hours on end. We can't be questing our whole life.

btw even Dogen thought Zen speak was a important part of practice. However, when you really look at it the words are just the finger, and I think some people mistake them for the moon. What I think is a part of practice, is to just express yourself as yourself. Sometimes that's Zenny. Sometimes that's logical. Sometimes an *ss (according to others), and sometimes compassionate and non verbal. Just you.

Gassho

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Soto and Rinzai

Jundo
Yeah, pretty much. My rule of thumb is, can you picture David Carradine saying it on Kung Fu? If so, probably better to let the moment pass in silence.

Jinho
Yes, exactly, context is everything. I have no problem with people who quote the old masters when appropriate, or who say things that can be difficult to grasp. But we should try to understand why they said what they said. When people do the whole iconoclastic zen bit inspired by say, Linji, they often forget that he was dealing with a very formalized, quasi-Confucian Buddhist establishment, and was trying to shake it out of its stupor. We've never had such a construct here, so when people try to act crazy and disregard structure like Linji, they miss the bigger picture (in my humble opinion).

Will
Zen speak has kind of become like stoner humor to me; I don't have a moral objection to it, I've just heard too much to enjoy it anymore. Dogen definitely says some very difficult and challenging things; but I don't believe he was ever deliberately making something more obscure than it actually was. Zen speak often has that effect (as does academic jargon, but that's a whole 'nother story).