Why so much anger?

[AlanLa]

Re: Why so much anger?

What a blessing! What a great teaching that all this ugliness has been so out in the open. I thank Jundo for his brave exhibition of humanness on that forum and this one. How generous of him to share his pain and anger with us and the rest of the world. We would have lost this great opportunity if the players here kept this behind closed doors. And as for our reaction to it, far too often when things get ugly we want to turn away. It makes us uncomfortable to witness the ugliness in the world, in people we look up to. But when things are ugly, when things make us uncomfortable, that is exactly the time to be looking at them directly! We can't learn if things are hidden from us! We can't learn when we look away from the ugliness! We learn by looking at the light, even when it appears dark and ugly.

Enlightenment isn't perfection; it's dealing with ours and others imperfections. Said more crudely (ugly): Shit happens. What matters is how we deal with it. So we sit with the shit and deal with it.

Gassho

[BrianP]

Re: Why so much anger?

Al has just summed it up perfectly. After all that has been said there is nothing more to add except to say that I have great sympathy for you Jundo in the pain that you have suffered. I am so pleased at the support our sangha has given. What a good place this is to be.

Blessings to all,
Yours in the Dharma,

Daiku

[Jundo]

Re: Why so much anger?

Al has just summed it up perfectly. After all that has been said there is nothing more to add except to say that I have great sympathy for you Jundo in the pain that you have suffered. I am so pleased at the support our sangha has given. What a good place this is to be.

Blessings to all,
Yours in the Dharma,

Daiku

Thank you Brian,

Just an aged father who is not himself and being extremely difficult on some of those who love him, and a few siblings who are not acting as brotherly as I might wish. Really, no different from what many a family faces ... even if a "Buddhist Sangha" family.

People are still people, for better or worse, even if practicing Buddhism for decades. Better, gentler and generally more peaceful and balanced people than they might have otherwise been without the practice, perhaps ... but still people.

Gassho, A People.

[Dojin]

Re: Why so much anger?

jundo i thank you for the lesson in peopleness.

Gassho, Daniel.

[Jundo]

Re: Why so much anger?

Yes, I just posted this on another thread about a major trigger of Nishijima's suspicions of "disloyalty" ...

*PS - One of the reasons that I am on Nishijima Roshi's "sh-t" list these days is that I told him over recent years that I thought he had taken his very good ideas of Zazen as "Balance of the Autonomic Nervous System" and of Zazen having a neuro-physiological basis, and had stretched his ideas rather too far into areas where there is no scientific backing, no data, or where scientific data is directly contradicting some of what he says. I said so with all tact and respect for his (then nearly) 90 year old person, but like some of our parents and grandfathers, he does not take any contradiction well these days. He has become a kind of "my way or the highway" fellow on this issue.

One has to be very cautious about speaking to one's seniors in Japan. That whole "hari-kiri" sword in the belly thing (I have avoided that so far).

So, for the past couple of years I just stopped mentioning the subject when with him, and let it slide. I even just took the easy road to agree with whatever he said and say "yes yes" (he is very near the point now where everything in Buddhism comes down to "balancing the Autonomic Nervous System") But, once he had me marked as disloyal to his theory a couple of years ago, he never trusted me quite the same way.

I want to be perfectly honest about the situation.

He is a wonderful teacher of Shikantaza, Dogen and Zazen ... but some of his "theories" about what those all mean are his own invention that have run a bit wild over time. I think.

Gassho, Jundo

viewtopic.php?p=20447#p20447

[kudra]

Re: Why so much anger?

There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support anyone's assertion that sitting zazen or spinning on ur head for that matter balances the ANS. The ANS dose a more than adequate job staying in balance all by itself. Thats why it is called the AUTO-NOMIC nervous system. I've been watching people discuss this issue on the blog-o-sphere for a couple months now without saying anything.

Trust me on this.......I'm a doctor.(they make you study shit like this just on the off chance that someday you might stumble across some incredibly stupid blog site like HC and you are forced by the sheer will of the truth to make an attempt at correcting some terribly confused and profoundly disturbed persons mind ..... like brad.) (Ta Da )

Jundo, thanks for allowing me to speak my peace on this issue without feeling like I am insulting you or your teacher.

But......de facts are de facts


Jenna

[Jundo]

Re: Why so much anger?

.... without feeling like I am insulting you or your teacher.

Oh, that's okay Jenna. I do enough insulting of me and him all on my lonesome! :wink:

There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support anyone's assertion that sitting zazen or spinning on ur head for that matter balances the ANS. The ANS dose a more than adequate job staying in balance all by itself. Thats why it is called the AUTO-NOMIC nervous system.

But wouldn't Zazen (and perhaps just the relaxation response associated with Zazen) have at least some indirect effects on the ANS, for example, in these studies? ... I am not saying that it is bringing about "balance in the ANS", whatever that may mean, but that it does have an effect in some ways ...

Okay, Jenna ... just say it directly: This whole "Balance of the ANS" idea via Zazen is snake oil and quackery. Yes? What is being described below is very mild changes to the heart, respiration, etc., with not particularly more significance. Is my understanding correct? Speak straight.

Functional brain mapping of the relaxation response and meditation
[AUTONOMIC NERVOUS SYSTEM]
http://www.neuroreport.com/pt/re/neuror ... 28!8091!-1

Changes in EEG and autonomic nervous activity during meditation and their association with personality traits
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 561d08f116

cDepartment of Psychiatry and Neurobiology, Graduate School of Medical Science, Kanazawa University, Kanazawa, Japan

Received 17 September 2003;
revised 17 July 2004;
accepted 20 July 2004.
Available online 2 September 2004.

Abstract

Meditation is the attainment of a restful yet fully alert physical and mental state practiced by many as a self-regulatory approach to emotion management, but the psychophysiological properties and personality traits that characterize this meditative state have not been adequately studied. We quantitatively analyzed changes in psychophysiological parameters during Zen meditation in 20 normal adults, and evaluated the results in association with personality traits assessed by Cloninger's Temperament and Character Inventory (TCI). During meditation, increases were observed in fast theta power and slow alpha power on EEG predominantly in the frontal area, whereas an increase in the normalized unit of high-frequency (nuHF) power (as a parasympathetic index) and decreases in the normalized unit of low-frequency (nuLF) power and LF/HF (as sympathetic indices) were observed through analyses of heart rate variability. We analyzed the possible correlations among these changes in terms of the percent change during meditation using the control condition as the baseline. The percent change in slow alpha EEG power in the frontal area, reflecting enhanced internalized attention, was negatively correlated with that in nuLF as well as in LF/HF and was positively correlated with the novelty seeking score (which has been suggested to be associated with dopaminergic activity). The percent change in fast theta power in the frontal area, reflecting enhanced mindfulness, was positively correlated with that in nuHF and also with the harm avoidance score (which has been suggested to be associated with serotonergic activity). These results suggest that internalized attention and mindfulness as two major core factors of behaviors of mind during meditation are characterized by different combinations of psychophysiological properties and personality traits.

Frontal midline theta rhythm is correlated with cardiac autonomic activities during the performance of an attention demanding meditation procedure
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... cfd762a712

Tai Chi Chih Acutely Decreases Sympathetic Nervous System Activity in Older Adults
Sarosh J. Motivala, John Sollers, Julian Thayer and Michael R. Irwin
Cousins Center for Psychoneuroimmunology, UCLA Semel Institute for Neuroscience & Human Behavior, Los Angeles, California.
http://biomed.gerontologyjournals.org/c ... 61/11/1177

1 Cousins Center for Psychoneuroimmunology, UCLA Semel Institute for Neuroscience & Human Behavior, Los Angeles, California.
2 Emotions and Quantitative Psychophysiology Section, National Institute on Aging, Gerontology Research Center, Baltimore, Maryland.

Address correspondence to Sarosh J. Motivala, PhD, Cousins Center for Psychoneuroimmunology, UCLA Semel Institute for Neuroscience & Human Behavior, 300 Medical Plaza, Suite 3148, Los Angeles, California 90095-7057. E-mail: smotivala@mednet.ucla.edu

Background. Aging is associated with increases of sympathetic nervous system activation implicated in the onset of hypertension and cardiovascular disease. The purpose of this study was to examine whether the practice of Tai Chi Chih (TCC), a movement-based relaxation practice, would acutely promote decreases of sympathetic activity in elderly persons.

[Ryumon]

Re: Why so much anger?

Thanks, Jundo, you saved me time looking up references. Jenna, there is a _ton_ of evidence that doing zazen, or other forms of meditation, has effects on the autonomic nervous system. It is not always named as such in the studies, such as Jundo posted, which call in heart rate, respiration, blood pressure, etc. Just because it is AUTO-nomic doesn't mean it can be influenced.

Kirk

[Jundo]

Re: Why so much anger?

Thanks, Jundo, you saved me time looking up references. Jenna, there is a _ton_ of evidence that doing zazen, or other forms of meditation, has effects on the autonomic nervous system. It is not always named as such in the studies, such as Jundo posted, which call in heart rate, respiration, blood pressure, etc. Just because it is AUTO-nomic doesn't mean it can be influenced.

Kirk

Hi Kirk,

But my understanding about that, and correct me if I am wrong, is that that is not saying much more than that the pulse rate and respiration changes, blood pressure and the like minor physiological changes occur during Zazen. That is just the relaxation response. I do not think that all the properties that Nishijima Roshi attributes to that (basically, pretty much all of Buddha's Enlightenment and Master Dogen's & Nagaruna's philosophical positions!) should be attributed just to that.

Nishijima Roshi used to be a runner. He often compares the experience. It is my feeling that Nishijima Roshi regularly experiences a very profound Samadhi and sense of peace/balance/wholeness/oneness in Zazen ... and cooked up his fanciful "Balance of the ANS" to explain that sensation/experience, based pretty much on his half-understanding of some popular science books and articles on the subject he read back in the 60's and 70's. In other words, he is an excellent and deep meditator, but his explanation of why is a bit peculiar.

I sometimes compare Nishijima Roshi to my own father. Smart, good, excellent fellow, well read (although not a college graduate ... he grew up during the depression). He knew a lot about the world but, for some reason, had the idea in his head that much of the third world crisis was due to the hot sun near the equator making people "hot blooded" (literally).

Well, I do not fault people for one cute idea too many. Nishijima Roshi is gifted in many other ways beyond his few "too cute" ideas.

Gassho, Jundo

[Ryumon]

Re: Why so much anger?

These studies are not showing that "all the properties that Nishijima Roshi attributes" are changing, but I don't think that invalidates his "theory". Studies do show long-term changes, that aren't measured as easily, notably in the production of certain neurotransmitters, which, in turn, have effects on the ANS (or whatever you want to call it). This is one reason, for example, why long-term meditation helps decrease chronic pain; there's an increase in dopamine and GABA, for example (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11958969; http://books.google.com/books?id=uZ4fyf ... #PPA118,M1). I think he found something, and tried to explain it in his way, but that it turns out that he's sort-of-correct. Only recently have theses studies been done, and I think they'll be finding more as time goes on, since this type of study has become somewhat "trendy" in medical circles.

Austin's two books - Zen and the Brain and Zen-Brain Reflections - discuss this in detail.

Kirk

[Jundo]

Re: Why so much anger?

Dr. Jenna,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Dysautonomia and the mitral valve prolapse syndrome caused by imbalances in the ANS? I think this is pretty well documented.

Al

And you believe that Zazen would help mitral valve prolapse etc., Al? Just curious as to what you are asking.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Why so much anger?

I understand that you don't feel that justifies Nishijima narrowing the whole history of Buddhism into a "Balanced ANS", but I think that this is what he sees as the truth at this point. Some people say, "everything is one" or "we all have Buddha nature". Nishijima seems to prefer using the ANS. This is what his experience has shown him. If everything really is "one" then these are all just words anyway.

Al

Well, I wish it were just a matter of that, Al. Thank you for the good thought.

[humblepie]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi all. I don't have any medical expertise to offer to the current line of discussion, but I'd like to just put my two cents in about the original question, "Why So Much Anger?"

I've learned a lot about anger lately...some from my past and some from the present. One important thing I've learned is that anger is okay, as long as it's expressed in an assertive way and not aggressive or passive. I've lived my life more on the passive side, expressing anger in more subtle, indirect ways. I'm learning how to be more assertive, and it sounds to me, Jundo, like your responses to Brad were more assertive than otherwise.
That makes me feel confident about you as a teacher.

Because I haven't been here that long and am fairly new to Zen in the first place, I had no idea who Brad Warner was. After reading through his blog, it sounds like he has some valuable teachings to impart, but he strikes me as someone who is deluded and has some growing up to do. His association with the whole porn thing is his choice, albeit an irresponsible one. Porn is very addictive, as the male brain can be triggered into a response similar to that of drugs. All too often, also, the porn industry is involved in sex with children. People can interpret the Precepts any way they want, but to me, sexual misconduct is a pretty clear issue. Lust is suffering. Watching porn is getting off on people who are suffering. And by the way, I'm not denying physical attraction. Happens to me a lot, but I deal with it in a different way.

And then there's the punk-thing. I was a punk rocker, too, when I was like, 18 or something. Yeah! Let's be pissed at the world! Okay. Whatever. I used to hang out and slam dance at clubs like Oliver J's in Allentown, which was real hard core, not poser hard core. Appealing to the whole younger generation angst-scene isn't really rebellion at all. It's a suck-up. If young people want to be true rebels, they may want to consider more patience, compassion and honesty. Being gentle and loving is more hard core than any punk-ass could ever hope to be.

If Brad wants to distance himself from you, Jundo, consider it a blessing. Hope I'm okay with commenting on this after the tension seems to have blown over somewhat.

Deepest and most sincere bows,
Dave

[Jundo]

Re: Why so much anger?

I just hope people who have only been around Treeleaf Sangha a few weeks won't think this is the way things always are. It was just a very sad family event, or series of events, that I thought to be very honest about. Most of the time, things are downright dull around here.

[Tb]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi.

I hope as "OJ" does that people see beyond these lines and see what is really going on, people practsing and living "the way" in "their way".

Mtfbwy
Tb