Why so much anger?

[KellyRok]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hello all,

Jundo - thank you for laying it all out on the table for us. Up to this point, I have to be honest, I didn't really know who Brad Warner was. I've never read his books and I don't plan to, I just don't think I could appreciate his style. I've been a member of Treeleaf now for just under a year. When I joined, I didn't honestly know what my plans were for staying with Soto Zen. But after listening and sitting with you day after day, I realized that you were someone I could relate to. You are more honest and human than any spiritual teacher I have ever known and I think that is what makes you so wonderful...what makes Treeleaf so wonderful.

I have always appreciated your honesty as well as that of the members of this Sangha. Like others have said, that is what makes us work as an online Sangha. I think you chose the right decision to try to resolve this dispute by speaking out, but I also feel that maybe there is nothing left on your part to do. The other members involved have to make a decision on what to do now...the ball is in their court. I don't understand Japanese culture or tradition, but I believe that racism in any form is completely dispicable and outrageous. I'm sorry you've had to experience this.

I truly am sorry that your teacher, whom you obviously love and respect, has turned his back on you. I don't have any answers or advice on that...it must be very difficult. I just wanted you to know that you have my support, my humble respect and gratitude, and my ears to listen. It may not be much, but it is all I have to offer.

A deep thank you to Taigu and you all for being so open in sharing your perspectives. Each and every one of you is my teacher.

Gassho,
Kelly (Jinmei)

[Shohei]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi Jundo,
Thank you for your very clear and open response. I have learned to expect no less! You have always been transparent and honest with us. One thing that is definitely different from a bricks and sticks zendo and Sangha and a 100% online one like Treeleaf is every thing we say/do is open to the world to see and its documented and archived. This would seem like it should lead to a lot less depth but instead moves us all to speak very candidly and freely and as often pointed out to a depth beyond that of most "face to face" Sanghas.

I only wish I could demonstrate my deep gratitude to you for your teachings "in and out" of the zendo.

Taigu, as always thank you for you very clear response wise words. That is a very good point you made right off the bat, you two had some differences in the past but you put it behind and moved forward solidifying a sound relationship. I for one am very glad you did - you are a great teacher as well -including and beyond the sewing instructions (though they are very much life lessons!!!) If only other parties could do the same . Since they won't and seem to feel the need to silence themsleves besides the odd expletive I say we let it lay where it feel and keep a passionate ear open - while still moving forward and letting go - should DSI and/or those concerned decide to reopen the lines of communication.

Growing up learning to keep the peace and my mouth shut has made me a bit shy of driving my point home for fear of retribution in some form. I bite my tongue too often. This is one place where I feel free to speak my mind and its thanks to all of you!

That said I truly am humbled to be able to practice along side you all.

Deepest bows
Shohei

[Hans]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hello folks!

Let us all not forget that we as sentient beings wrestle with reality all the time and that it is precisely this wrestling...struggling....experiencing different aspects of the bumpy ride called life (including interpersonal challenges) that makes our practice so valuable. Even the historical Buddha himself had sangha troubles he couldn't resolve in a nice way. Let us heed his final words before passing away: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

Our striving may lead us down twisted paths,straight paths, beautiful and frightening paths, we may even be the thorns on some other individual's path , sometimes even thinking ourselves to be sweet scented flowers...and yet we must keep sitting. Discomfort and hardship are ultimately our greatest teachers, so although one should not turn into a voyeuristic masochist and enjoy the endless permutations of differing views crashing against one another on other blogs (no matter how justified they may be), let us return to our practice at the end of the day and remember to stay true to our own vows and to tend this garden which is Treeleaf.
Two years online with (compared to your average online presence) so little conflict yet with so many treasures having been revealed to one another is truly remarkable and worthy of celebration.

I know I sound like a cheap fortune cookie, but I just couldn't help it. No pretentiousness was intended, seriously.

Gassho,

Hans

[Shugen]

Re: Why so much anger?

My first reaction to all this was "ignore it and it will go away". That would be the "easy" thing to do, but not the best thing to do. It needs to be dealt with and not swept under the rug. So, thank you for bringing it to our attention. I have faith that Jundo will do what he thinks is best. I'm not crazy about it being done quite so publicly, but it seems there was no other choice. It's a painful and ugly mess, but life is like that sometimes. Treeleaf has been a wonderful place for my practice in the past, and will continue to be so in the future.

I can never say this too often; Thank You Jundo, Thank You everyone who is now, or has ever been a member in the past.

Ron

[Martin]

Re: Why so much anger?

Lots of good sense, and lots of compassion in the posts here.

I thought Hardcore Zen was a great book and it was part of what led me to zazen and here to Treeleaf, so I shall always be grateful to Brad for that. As a result, I had pre ordered Brad's latest, and read it eagerly when it came. I have to say it didn't work for me the way Hardcore Zen did, or at all, but perhaps that says more about where I was when I read each book.

As Jundo has noted, part of Brad's message in the book is precisely the same as what Jundo has been teaching and saying here (and elsewhere): that Zen teachers are human beings with foibles and needs who make mistakes too. Which is just one more reason why the present situation is so sad. Jundo, it must be very hurtful, and I'm so sorry.

Whether Jundo was "right" to speak out on Brad's blog or the Dogen Sangha site I can't know. I don't think there is a "right". Jundo spoke as he saw best at the time. I tend to the view that generally we all err on the side of saying too much, but it's hard to know when to post and when not. I posted much of what I've said in this post on this thread yesterday,but then deleted my post, partly because I felt uneasy discussing Jundo's "behaviour" on what is, after all, his site, without him and partly because I decided that yet another person weighing in on line with their opinion really added nothing. Well, here I am posting again. Which just goes to show how hard it is to know when to post and when not, and that Zen students, like Zen teachers, are human beings with foibles and needs who make mistakes too.

As for looking for perfection in a teacher, or seeking one teacher to the exclusion of all others, I'm happy, and proud, to view Jundo as my teacher. Along with my wife, and kids, and the people who allow me to mediate their disputes, and everyone else posting here, and the rest of my life.

Jundo, you, together with everyone else at Treeleaf, have made this a wonderful place for practice and for learning from each other's teachings and, yes, each other's mistakes. I am grateful to you all. I'm sorry for the hurt Jundo must have suffered, but I'm glad to be here with you all.

Gassho

Martin

[Tb]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi.

I paused for some time to think about what would be "Right Speech" in commenting on what had happened.
Now, I do believe “Buddhists should not fight Buddhists” and “there is only one Dharma” meaning that we’re all friends on different (and same) road/s to the same goal.
But a few injustices, or even as important unfairnesses, are worth speaking up about from time to time.

"And what, monks, is Right Speech?
Refraining from lying, refraining from slander, refraining from harsh speech, refraining from frivolous speech.
This is called Right Speech."

-Mahasatipatthana Sutra

But do not forget that it is equally important to speak up against the same...

And to the question whether it was "wrong" or "right"...
I don't know, that really is not the important question here right?

shall we sit with that?

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Jundo]

Re: Why so much anger?

shall we sit with that?

Mtfbwy
Tb

Oh, yes. Delusion and human conflict are just dust. Let's just let it all quietly settle.

Sorry for kicking up a big cloud of dust.

Gassho, with tears of happiness, Jundo

[Bansho]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi,

So many wonderful things said in this thread already... thank you all. If life didn't throw problems at us now and then, we wouldn't need this practice. So much ugliness, so much hurting, but also a chance to reflect and grow stronger. I'm very grateful for having the opportunity to practice with you all.

Deep bows
Bansho

[disastermouse]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi,

So many wonderful things said in this thread already... thank you all. If life didn't throw problems at us now and then, we wouldn't need this practice. So much ugliness, so much hurting, but also a chance to reflect and grow stronger. I'm very grateful for having the opportunity to practice with you all.

Deep bows
Bansho

Life never throws problems at anyone. The practice never helps anyone with their problems. These are not minor points.

I'm also very grateful to be able to practice with you.

Chet

[Bansho]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi Chet,

Life never throws problems at anyone. The practice never helps anyone with their problems. These are not minor points.

Maybe so. But if we perceive them as problems and if we perceive the practice as helpful, what's the difference? And if we realize our perceptions are just are perceptions, haven't we been helped?

Gassho
Bansho

[disastermouse]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi Chet,

Life never throws problems at anyone. The practice never helps anyone with their problems. These are not minor points.

Maybe so. But if we perceive them as problems and if we perceive the practice as helpful, what's the difference? And if we realize our perceptions are just are perceptions, haven't we been helped?

Gassho
Bansho

Nope. You've been tricked. By yourself. Viewing the practice as a solution to problems validates and gives strength to the erroneous view that your problems are a problem to be surmounted by the practice. This very approach - the problem-solving one, is an example of wrong-view, as relates to the practice. Zazen is also not a means by which to broaden our tolerance of what we perceive as problems - taking the 'problem' view leaves intact an entire structure of resistance to reality that is both unnecessary and unhelpful.

This is what Zen teachers mean when they say that zazen and zen practice are completely useless.

IMHO.

Chet

[Bansho]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi Chet,

Nope. You've been tricked. By yourself. Viewing the practice as a solution to problems validates and gives strength to the erroneous view that your problems are a problem to be surmounted by the practice. This very approach - the problem-solving one, is an example of wrong-view, as relates to the practice. Zazen is also not a means by which to broaden our tolerance of what we perceive as problems - taking the 'problem' view leaves intact an entire structure of resistance to reality that is both unnecessary and unhelpful.

No. I practice Zazen to practice Zazen, not to solve my problems. Which isn't to say that some problems are no longer problems. It's not one or the other.

Gassho
Bansho

[disastermouse]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi Chet,

Nope. You've been tricked. By yourself. Viewing the practice as a solution to problems validates and gives strength to the erroneous view that your problems are a problem to be surmounted by the practice. This very approach - the problem-solving one, is an example of wrong-view, as relates to the practice. Zazen is also not a means by which to broaden our tolerance of what we perceive as problems - taking the 'problem' view leaves intact an entire structure of resistance to reality that is both unnecessary and unhelpful.

No. I practice Zazen to practice Zazen, not to solve my problems. Which isn't to say that some problems are no longer problems. It's not one or the other.

Gassho
Bansho

Insightful reply!

*gassho*

Chet

[Juko]

Re: Why so much anger?

shall we sit with that?

Mtfbwy
Tb

Oh, yes. Delusion and human conflict are just dust. Let's just let it all quietly settle.

Sorry for kicking up a big cloud of dust.

Gassho, with tears of happiness, Jundo

Yes, it settles.
This cloud of dust is gritty dharma,
grist to spit out or swallow
let's drink up.

Dear Jundo, Taigu, this dear Treeleaf Sangha & other Sangha members present here in my heart: thank-you for this teaching, thank-you for being open, thank-you for teaching through being & sharing your thoughts & processing of the types of difficulties which arise in all of our lives.

_/_, Juko

[Dosho]

Re: Why so much anger?

Hi all,

I don't have anything profound to say and all that I'd probably ever contribute has already been said. My only comment on Brad was much as Taigu stated...I have never responsed to Brad's type of teaching, but I am aware that some need a shock to the system to change their course and since reading his books has brought some of us to Treeleaf I am grateful to him for that much.

I would just like to thank Jundo for commenting here about the issue because, although I didn't want to ask him about it, I didn't like the idea of gossip and conjecture being the final word either. I do have to say that one of Jundo's last comments in this thread has stayed with me the last couple days:

We all get old. Hope you guys are as patient with me 40 years from now.

It made me reflect on the sad reality of human life we shall all be faced with soon enough, either as the caretaker or the one who needs care. May we all have someone to look out for us. But it also made me smile to think what Treeleaf could become over that time and how many good friends I will have come to know so well by then. Not very buddhist to think of a far distant future...back to this moment and the cushion.

Gassho,
Scott