Why so much anger?

[Ryumon]

NOTE FROM JUNDO: MY RESPONSE TO ALL THIS IS ABOUT 19 POSTS DOWN

I come and go here, staying for a while then fading away and coming back. So recently I came back, and saw a mention of Brad Warner's new book. I followed up on it, going to his site, and I was stunned to see a host of angry comments, many coming from Jundo, some from Brad, and even a break-up between Jundo and Nishijima. What's happened? The Jundo I knew was a friendly, easy-going guy, but I didn't recognize him in some of the comments I read. I'm perplexed...

Kirk

[Ryumon]

Re: Why so much anger?

While I agree with much of what you said, that's not the point. I mean, I haven't taken the precepts, though for different reasons, and I don't want to commit myself to any one person as a teacher. However, picking and choosing means you accept what's easy, and don't pick the things that may confront the part of you that needs confrontation.

Anyone, that wasn't my question.

One more thing I learned: that Jundo has edited some forum posts, and has banned at least two people from the forum. Now there may have been reasons for this, but it's especially surprising considering that Jundo made a point of mentioning how he was banned from the esangha forum...

Kirk

[Shohei]

Re: Why so much anger?

I don't want to commit myself to any one person as a teacher

Hiyas
For the quote above (sorry to snip it) Taking the precepts doesn't bind you to anyone Teacher or otherwise. Really Just a ceremony commemorating your commitment to abide by the precepts. Taking or not taking doesnt tie/untie you from a teacher or lineage. Heck I can take Jukai with Jundo or Chodo Cross or Sponge Bob Zen Pants (Pat. Pend.) or anyone whom is willing to teach, do the ceremony and accept me as their student. Any other significance is in your own head! Well, it all is, really.

I was reading some comments on Nishijima Roshis' blog when i found some comments i found a tad confusing. Until yesterday i had no idea of any of this other S*** brewing on other forums. Since then I have seen the comments on a couple of forums and between all the disjointed, ridiculous name calling by posters who are being immature beyond belief because they can post anonymously. There are issues that need to be worked out by the parties involved.

Jundo is still Jundo, Brad is Brad and Nishijima Roshi is still Nisijima.
and none of them are exactly the same as they were when i wrote that. :roll:

One thing about "knowing" someone on the interwebz, in my experience, is that we can never really get the all the complexities of a person (well that applies to all interaction i guess, not just the web). All of us even, if we wrote every waking moment into this forum or some site, cannot possible relay the experience they had personally of those events to someone else reading it and Not have it come across differently even if its ever so slight its different. I read it thusly, with my life experiences filling in the gaps between the words and lines. You read i this way with the same process. We all project our personal view on it form so more thoughts on the matter and then go BACK to the web and write even more. So to be shocked when some one asses up is kinda... shocking.

WE all, EVERY one of us, including our teachers, in Dharma or otherwise, well, inevitably A) not meet someones standard they set for us in their mind - orly? B) make a walloping mistake of some form, some time now and again just to reinforce that were all HUMAN.
Its how that mistake is handled that makes all the difference to me.

The question of who assed up what is something the persons involved should (be able to) figure out. The rest is just bull shit piling up on the ground, or forums. Mind your step!

Gassho Shohei

[Eika]

Re: Why so much anger?

One more thing I learned: that Jundo has edited some forum posts, and has banned at least two people from the forum. Now there may have been reasons for this, but it's especially surprising considering that Jundo made a point of mentioning how he was banned from the esangha forum...

Hi, Kirk.
Nice to hear from you again.

Jundo can defend himself here if he likes, but I have been watching the "feudin'" as we might say in TN with some interest. I have seen the admirable qualities and the not-so-admirable qualities of several of the teachers I respect over the past month. Between Brad's book, Jundo response, and Nishijima's curt responses to Jundo, there has been a lot of pressure that needed to be released between these three guys. I was not as shocked by this as some apparently are as I have never been under the delusion that these guys are anything other than people just like me. If they weren't human, how could we appreciate their teachings?

All three of the guys have contributed to a situation that is bubbling up in their blogs. I don't think it is anyone's fault in particular. There will be squabbles amongst dedicated practitioners of anything . . . in fact, the more dedicated, the stronger the squabbles.

As to Jundo's behavior in particular, he would have to speak to that.

I will say that my understanding is that one former treeleafer was asked to leave because he was using abusive language toward another. The second person was simply asked to leave temporarily until they sought professional help (many of us thought this person might be suicidal as their posts were almost always about how bleak the universe was). I think Jundo was simply trying to force this person to seek the help they needed, and to avoid enabling a downward spiral. Hindsight says this person was not suicidal, but at the time it seemed like the lesser evil would be to use tough-love rather than read about their suicide.

Maybe Jundo has a temper. And? Many do. Most of the time it is OK. A couple of guys can, evidently, push his buttons. I suppose we each have our baggage, teachers included. I'm willing to cut him a break as long as he doesn't appear to cultivate his temper, and I see no evidence of that.

Also, there is danger assuming that all "banning" is equal. Banning someone for speaking well-reasoned ideas is something I would not support. Being banned for being a continual disruption is something that is common in nearly every type of teaching institution. I have the right to ask a student to leave my class if he or she is a continual disruption or is negatively affecting the progress of the class. I would never ask someone to leave for respectfully stating an opinion no matter how outrageous, but insults and other disruptions would need to be dealt with for the sake of the whole class.

My two cents,
Bill

[Ryumon]

Re: Why so much anger?

Jundo can defend himself here if he likes, but I have been watching the "feudin'" as we might say in TN with some interest. I have seen the admirable qualities and the not-so-admirable qualities of several of the teachers I respect over the past month. Between Brad's book, Jundo response, and Nishijima's curt responses to Jundo, there has been a lot of pressure that needed to be released between these three guys. I was not as shocked by this as some apparently are as I have never been under the delusion that these guys are anything other than people just like me. If they weren't human, how could we appreciate their teachings?

All three of the guys have contributed to a situation that is bubbling up in their blogs. I don't think it is anyone's fault in particular. There will be squabbles amongst dedicated practitioners of anything . . . in fact, the more dedicated, the stronger the squabbles.

Bill,

I think what surprises me most is the fact that they're doing this in public, in plain sight of their students and others, rather than sitting down and talking things out (well, sitting down virtually...).

Best,

Kirk

[Eika]

Re: Why so much anger?

Bill,

I think what surprises me most is the fact that they're doing this in public, in plain sight of their students and others, rather than sitting down and talking things out (well, sitting down virtually...).

Best,

Kirk

Yes, that surprised me too. Evidently there is enough animosity to prevent that kind of civil discourse. Also, maybe there is some email or phone contact that we are not privy to between many of the Nishijima heirs. For a while I hoped that they would bring it all out into the open and thus let it die, but now I'm of the opinion that it is best to let them deal with it however they are going to, and simply stay out of the way.
I have no personal experience with this, but from the accounts I have read it really is not much different in a monastery setting. There are always student/teacher issues, student/student issues that cause discontent and anger. I think it is easier to believe that our teachers are supermen and superwomen who couldn't possibly break a precept, but that's not reality. The real teaching is to see HOW these teachers accept and deal with their human failings . . . so, like the sign says, life is our temple.


Gassho,
Bill

[CharlesC]

Re: Why so much anger?

I just happened to be listening to a talk by Barry Magid this morning on the subject of the Student Teacher Relationship, available here, and one section seemed relevant to this situation (my transcript):

... Because one of the things that you are asked to surrender to is an acceptance of this person with all his idiosyncracies and flaws and quirks as the teacher, as the embodiment of practice. It means being willing to accept the limitation of one particular individual as it, as sufficient. It means letting go of fantasies and idealization of the perfect teacher, of the perfect enlightened one, whose very look or word or touch is going to somehow magically give it to you. A big part of surrender is surrendering to the particular as opposed to the ideal and the general. It's surrendering to this is it. This is not a compromise or a good enough substitute for the real thing or something that we're just sort of doing now until the Dalai Lama arrives or whoever else we're waiting for who is really it. This is it....

If you wait for the perfect teacher to come along you are going to be waiting a long time (and it's also likely that if you try to go it alone the chances are increased that you will never get anywhere either), and isn't this anyway a misunderstanding of what Zen B is about? Isn't it more to do with discovering the beauty of the world as it is, warts and all; not expecting that things and people should conform to how we think they should be, which leads to suffering.

:Charles

[CharlesC]

Re: Why so much anger?

And it seems that one of the side-issues in this whether zazen is sufficient, automatically leading you to behave in such a way that you don't break the precepts, or whether you also need to consciously follow the precepts. Perhaps we are receiving some valuable teaching about this question.

:Charles

[Ryumon]

Re: Why so much anger?

I'm not looking for the One True Teacher, whoever s/he may be. I just feel like I stumbled into a dysfunctional family's Thanksgiving dinner...

Kirk

[Kent]

Re: Why so much anger?

If you stand back and look past all of this , the Dharma still remains. :| Kent

[Martin]

Re: Why so much anger?

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[Yogi]

Re: Why so much anger?

I really love to learn from Jundo. It's clear that he is a human being as every one else, and he's playing in the mud as everyone in this world. It's great! We are not learning from a guy who is living in a monastery in isolation, or treated like a god, or from one who acts in public like having no desires or anger, but his personal live is not what he shows.

Im afraid that it's not easy to swallow a reply like that one from Nishijima Roshi, specially when Nishijima believes that Jundo is saying what actually are Brad words and teachings, so I can understand the anger and frustration.

Anyway, I love to learn dharma from and for non-robots, that's great.

Gassho,
Hernán

[Eika]

Re: Why so much anger?

It's clear that he is a human being as every one else, and he's playing in the mud as everyone in this world. It's great! We are not learning from a guy who is living in a monastery in isolation, or treated like a god, or from one who acts in public like having no desires or anger, but his personal live is not what he shows.
Anyway, I love to learn dharma from and for non-robots, that's great.

Gassho,
Hernán

Hi, Hernan.

I agree.

Gassho,
Bill

[Eika]

Re: Why so much anger?

If you stand back and look past all of this , the Dharma still remains. :| Kent

I agree Kent. If you ask the wind, it won't pick sides. Nonetheless, humans are not as smart as the wind.

Bill

[Undo]

Re: Why so much anger?

I think it is up to each of us to walk our own paths. Sometimes we may need someone to help us , some times we may help other people and sometimes we can walk alone. It is still the path of our own and everyone's.
It is always important to remember whenever we bump into someone who may need help we do not judge or criticise. We are there for them if they need someone to walk with whether they have helped us in the past, we have helped them or we have never met.

Regards

Undo