Buddhism and GODthingy?

[Tb]

Hi.

One thing that struck me was the buddhism and GODthingy.
As i live in a city which is pretty much into christianity and it's different sect (jehovas witness and other christian variations), i've often been confronted with the question if you can be a buddhist and a christian.
And i think the answer is something like this...
Yes, because buddhism isn't a belief that raises the question of GOD, buddha never spoke about it really...
No, if your definition of god is something separate and "not subject to the law of karma and suchlike".
Yes, buddhism isn't a religion per se, it's more "a way of life"...
No, If you believe your "GOD" to be the "creator" of it all (ok, has some "loopholes")
...

And so, my question to the forum is this, have you got any more arguments for the either side?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Tb]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hi.

Brad warner had a chapter in "sit down and shut up" about GOD...

http://www.amazon.com/Sit-Down-Shut-Up- ... 257&sr=8-1

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[jcsuperstar]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

buddha spoke about it.. i dont know why people like to say he didnt but he did
here's a few things he's said about it

"The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God." MN II 68.

'As far as the suns and moons extend their courses and the regions of the sky shine in splendour, there is a thousandfold world system. In each single one of these there are a thousand suns, moons, Meru Mountains, four times a thousand continents and oceans, a thousand heavens of all stages of the realm of sense pleasure, a thousand Brahma worlds. As far as a thousandfold world system reaches in other words, the universe], the Great God is the highest being. But even the Great God is subject to coming-to-be and ceasing-to-be.' Anguttara-Nikaya X 29

"God truthfully answers [the questions of the Buddha] in succession: 'Good sir, those views I previously held are not mine; I see the radiance the world of God as passing; how could I say that I am permanent and eternal?'" 83rd discourse of the Middle Length Sayings

"Again, monks, I [the Buddha] approached those ascetic and brahmins and said to them: 'Is it true, as they say, that you venerable ones teach and hold the view that whatever a person experiences...all that is caused by God's creation?' When they affirmed it, I said to them: 'If that is so, venerable sirs, then it is due to God's creation that people kill, steal ...[and otherwise act badly]. But those who have recourse to God's creation as the decisive factor, will lack the impulse and the effort doing this or not doing that. Since for them, really and truly, no (motive) obtains that this or that ought to be done or not be done...."' Anguttara Nikaya 3.61

[jcsuperstar]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

theres also a sutra/sutta where he calls those who preach about god being true, without ever having seen him, fools

[Tb]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hi.

I stand somewhat corrected, but that's why i said

Yes, because buddhism isn't a belief that raises the question of GOD, buddha never spoke about it really...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Interesting question,

I have no answer of course. I don' want to hear about God and the likes anymore so I suppose it is convenient for me to see Buddhism as a religion without God if you see God as a creator, outside the whole world. And I don't buy the whole thing about a super hero or daddy saving the whole mess we make. But you may object that I believe in Jizo and Kannon, yes i do but not as separate entities from this world, I seee them as metaphors of what happens in me and outside of me, so i meet Kannon everyday in the flesh, I meet Jizo everyday not just carved in stone but as you do, all of you. Selfless actions is Kannon itself. Fro drinking coffee to pissing it in the stream. From commuting to working. And even in my selfish actions, imperfect as they are Kannon is still there as an unconditionnal display of Big mind. Anyway I only see Kannon in the great and not so great people I meet and things changing around. The one thousand activities of each day are manifested through this. So Maitreya perceived as a saviour or Christ or anybody else is not my cup of tea, and not in my cup of tea. Trungpa used to really insist on this, you may not like him or agree with his conduct, but he had a great point. Deshimaru used to repeat endlessly that God and Buddha were one and the same...He also had a point.
Take care

Taigu

[Hans]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hello!

Sorry to quote myself here, but I guess what I wrote in the Nichiren-Shu chanting thread fits in rather nicely here:

"The theme of mixing traditions is one of my favourites...so if you ever want to see me waffle on about one single subject for hours and hours without end (and strangely enough with no one else in the room... ) just tell me "Hans how do you feel about mixing Zen practice with Christianity?" and enjoy the boring ride. That's why I shut up about this most of the time...let me just briefly say that I think that many configurations of religous/practice are of course possible on a personal level, they do exist anyway...however, one does not have to be a puritan dogmatist to see that certain key themes and also certain goals are vastly different and mutually exclusive when it comes down to mixing stuff (watch me use some of them fancy words: ontology, soteriology!!).

Here comes my personal slice of dogma-cake: The three jewels are the ultimate refuge for a buddhist, to accept Jesus as a refuge of equal importance is contrary to nearly 95% of all buddhist schools that ever existed on this planet. To accept the three jewels as a refuge of equal importance to Jesus as your personal saviour makes you a non Chrisitan according to 95% of all major Christian traditions.

One can be a "cultural" anything and still practice Zazen, no problem. If your personal belief system includes clinging to and serving (a term that appears time and again in all Chritianity) any kind of personal God (other than a respectful nod here and then) , then you're not lettin it all "drop". If you drop everything in Zazen , even Buddhism, you are not doing anything wrong. If you dare to drop God (or some mantra that's supposedly all important), you're really off the rails in mainstream Christian terms. I really like the wisdom of people like Willigis-Jäger and some of the other modern monk-mystics, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that what they represent is in fact representative of Christianity as a whole.

Those were jsut some thoughts and I am happy to discuss and even embrace other points of view, I could be dead wrong after all. Whatever works for you is my bottom line...just don't anyone tell me that the exception is the rule."

.... and a little while later: the issue does not stop with personal practice but goes beyond that and ends up firmly in the political and social realities of people's lives. Most people who call themselves XYZ support not only their own practice, but whole organisations through giving money or simply through belonging to them and thus confirming the status quo. In the case of catholicism (and yes we can find dodgy examples within our own buddhist ranks as well), you can sit all the Zazen you like, as long as you're still an official member paying church tax, your "fringe definition" of catholicism-Zazen strengthens an organisation that actively keeps people in thrid world countries from using contraception etc. etc."


IMHO it's important for people to define what they mean by the Godthingy....because Einstein and other people of whom it is often said that they believed in a GOD, did not believe in a personal God, but rather some non-personal mysterious WOWness. Believing in a personal God is the main defining factor of abrahamitic monotheisms.

Whether you believe in a personal God or not when you practice Buddhism and/or Zazen is not really the issue IMHO, however once you are attached to your own belief in God you're definitley off the middle way and not a Buddhist anymore (in my book that is....and yes, my "book" can be wrong and I try not to be too attached to my own stupid opinions)...at least that's how it seems to be to me. In the western world you can call yourself whatever you want. Whatever works for you. So I guess it's okay to worship great Cthulhu and offer him the souls of innocent humanoids to celebrate his glory and still call yourself a Buddhist....it's only when the cthulhuoid interpretation of Buddhism tries to tell me that this syncretism fits the genereally accepted definitions of mainstream Buddhism that developed over 2500 years that I may raise my eyebrow.

Gassho,

Mongen

[Martin]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Can one believe in God and be Buddhist?

Well, "God" is just a word, "Dog" spelled backwards.

Whether one can be a "Buddhist" (which is just another word) depends entirely on what belief system or experience one hides behind the label "God". Goethe put the question of what one means by God much better than I ever could: http://german.about.com/library/nblgretchen.htm .

For my part, I can't get my head round the concept of something that might be a first cause (nor around the concept of a universe without a first cause, come to that) so I'm left firmly in the "don't know" camp.

To return to Fugen's original, and subtlely different question, can one be a Buddhist and a Christian? Well, of course, "Christian" is just another word. I guess it depends on the particular Christian grouping one has in mind, but most of them seem to require adherence to a particular verbal formula about what the "truth" is (they call them "creeds"). I'm guessing that it might be difficult to practice Zen, at least, whilst adhering to a particular verbal formula since in zazen there are no verbal formulas, at least not as standing for the Truth that is always right in front of us.

I'm conscious, rereading this, that I may sound as if I'm quibbling about the meaning of words and verbal formula. But actually for me this goes to the heart of the matter: Christianity, at least as practised by most of the Christians I have the honour and privilege to know, is fundamentally a matter of adhering to a set of beliefs, of subscribing to a particular formula. It's a religion of belief. I have some beliefs, actually, but I don't feel that my Zen practice requires those beliefs, or indeed any beliefs of me. There wasn't a precept requiring "Belief in the Truth as imparted to Jundo". We just sit, and just live our lives as best as we can if there is no God, and if there is one, well, we just sit and live our lives just the same. It seems to me that it is our attitude to belief itself, our attitude to the question of whether there is a God, and a Jesus, that would disqualify us from being Christian as well as Buddhist, at least as most Christians understand the term. Now, it may be that I can find room in my beliefs for a God and a Jesus, and also no God and no Jesus, and I do, but to say that this makes me a Christian would be to redefine the word so it has no meaning to most who call themselves Christians. Which, to us, might not matter, because it's just a word, but to my Christian friends would very much matter.

Gassho

Martin

[Shui_Di]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

This is my opinion about God things.....

God has no relation with Buddhist teaching or Zen....

You believe or not, it has no relation with your practice at all.
So, please don't be confuse....

If you don't believe it, it's OK, just continue your practice.

I my self believe about Gods, but I don't believe about Gods who determine human's fate, create the universe, and a God who determine whether you go down to the hell, or bring you to the heaven.

In my belief, Gods is just like a human, but with different form and power (once again... this is my belief, it's not Zen at all)...

Gods has greater power than human because of their good deeds. Every one can become a god if they have a lot of good deeds. So, I believe there are a lot of Gods (but I do not believe the Gods who control the whole universe)

But for me, becoming a God is not the purpose of Buddhism at all. A lot of Gods also learn about Buddhism like us (once again, it's my belief).

I some times go to the temple to give respect to the gods. Why not? is it fault to give respect to a good person? They can become a God, so they must be a good person with a different form. And Buddha said that respect to a good thing is good. Just like I respect to Jundo.

But it doesn't mean that I only respect the God, and disrespect to another. I respect Gods as a part of the universe, not as the boss and the creator of the universe. The original face of Gods and human and the whole universe has no different at all.

What I disagree is
when person think that their fate is in God's hand.

But that's my belief.

Whether you believe the existence of Gods or not, you still have to drink and eat, go to office to work, and sleep at night. So, It has no different at all.

Zen is not about God thing. Zen is just as it is. Just the life is self.

Gassho, Mujo

[replicant]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

So I guess it's okay to worship great Cthulhu and offer him the souls of innocent humanoids to celebrate his glory and still call yourself a Buddhist....it's only when the cthulhuoid interpretation of Buddhism tries to tell me that this syncretism fits the genereally accepted definitions of mainstream Buddhism that developed over 2500 years that I may raise my eyebrow.

I knew I had it all wrong! Think I'll go back to chanting Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ..

:twisted: :twisted:

[Hans]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Inside joke coming:

IÄ IÄ Shub Niggurath, the goat with the thousand young!

P.S. Should we ever meet in person I shall show you the secret Cthulhu greeting...until then...fthagn.....

[Tb]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hi.

Commercial break.



And now back to the question, can you be a buddhist and a christian at the same time?
Why/why not?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Bansho]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hi Fugen,

And now back to the question, can you be a buddhist and a christian at the same time?
Why/why not?

Shouldn't you ask someone who actually considers themselves both Buddhist and Christian how they reconcile the two?

Gassho
Bansho

[replicant]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hi Fugen,

And now back to the question, can you be a buddhist and a christian at the same time?
Why/why not?

Shouldn't you ask someone who actually considers themselves both Buddhist and Christian how they reconcile the two?

Maybe email this guy?

http://www.mkzc.org/about-mkzc.htm

I'm not too familiar w/them but it seems he was a Jesuit priest before he started studying Zen .. I've brought up this center before and if I can remember correctly Jundo stated he was a nice fella.

[radicaldreamer]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hahaha. Cthulhu was a bodhisattva. I think I read that in the Avatamsaka Sutra, or something. :lol:

-Chris