Buddhism and GODthingy?

[Tobiishi]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Here comes my personal slice of dogma-cake: The three jewels are the ultimate refuge for a buddhist, to accept Jesus as a refuge of equal importance is contrary to nearly 95% of all buddhist schools that ever existed on this planet. To accept the three jewels as a refuge of equal importance to Jesus as your personal saviour makes you a non Chrisitan according to 95% of all major Christian traditions.

I think this (from Hans) hits the nail on the head for the whole topic... You can call yourself a Buddhist or a Christian, and you can call yourself both, but to be sincere in the belief of either one, you cannot be sincere in both at the same time. To try to rationalize a dual identity like this will surely undermine the best of both.

BTW, I definitely love that Cthulhu graphic

[sarushin]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

I've been thinking about this all day (it was slow at work) and for what it's worth I don't think one can be both Christian and Buddhist BUT one can use Buddhism to enhance their Christianity and it would improve the latter. Here's the way I see it, religion is a sort of cultural furniture, it's used to feel mentally comfortable in a hostile world. All religions are basically the same in major points (I'm leaving out various animistic beliefs but including humanism) e.g. the Golden Rule, The Precepts, Ten Commandments, et al. The study of any of the other major religions can only benefit your faith by understanding and gaining tolerance. This is also under the assumption that you are a tolerant person to begin with. Buddhism to me seems not only the most benevolent of all the major religions but also the most stripped down. In Zen especially it's faith that has been stripped of dogma. It's like taking religion and getting rid of all the extras, including God in some ways. I realize even in Zen there is dogma but it seems less oppressive. Buddhism therefore feels to me to be a most basic of all sorts of faiths, sort of a proto-monotheism. It came as a reform to Hindu and was one of the first non-polytheistic faiths which seems to be part of the evolution of society. This is not meant to be belittling to Hindu in any way, it like so many other faiths can be wonderful but has many dark elements to it. True Buddhism became more of a religion as it spread and was assimilated in various cultures. Those cultures made it resemble other faiths with actual worship and deities. This is one of the things that I like about Zen so much, especially Soto, is it goes back to the source, sitting, and says you can save yourself the same way The Buddha did. Many of the great religious leaders that are loved by the people had many Buddhist qualities, Thomas Merton, St. Francis, Gandhi, Jesus Christ, George Fox, the list could go on. It's these qualities that make faith live and breathe and have love, not be stodgy old beliefs wrapped up in nice binding. I think it's these contemplatives that renew the good qualities of their respective faiths and the source that they draw from is the same that we do when we sit, that eternal emptiness in which all things are possible. This source is called many names but it's really all the same. This is why I see Zen as having stripped away all those trappings because it points directly to that source and tells you how to experience it. Now, if any of what I said made sense I'll wipe the sweat from my brow and smile.

Alan

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

The non-dual advaita view on god is pretty much the same thing as emptiness that buddhists talk about.

Same thing, different label.

You know, you would have to ask god if that is so. I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe something completely else altogether, something beyond the farthest reaches of small human minds.

Here is what I always say when asked about this ...

Is there a "God named 'Jehovah'"? Jesus? Or the "non-dual advaita view"? .......... If so, live human life, fetch wood and carry water.

Is there not some "God named 'Jehovah'"? No "Jesus"? And not the "non-dual advaita view"? .......... If not, live human life, fetch wood and carry water.

I recently have been doing a series of postings on topics like this, called tongue in cheek "Jundo Tackles the BIG Questions". Have a chuckle, and maybe look at a couple. This one may be most on point ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1236&p=17297&hilit=god+wood+wa ter#p17297

and then there's these two ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1206&p=16855&hilit=god+wood+wa ter#p16855

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1205&p=16830&hilit=god+wood+wa ter#p16830

But, personally, I think that someone can practice Zen Buddhism with Judaism or Christianity, if one has the right perspective on it all. I choose not to, and to just fetch wood and carry water.

Gassho, Jundo

[AlanLa]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Maybe, just maybe, God is the ultimate koan, and the only way to solve this koan is to become God. But even if you succeed, everyone else is still struggling with it, so what's the point? Chop wood, fetch water, and live life well according to the precepts/commandments, etc.

[Rev R]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

I want to get a bit more into this one, but for now I just want to comment on Alan's comment.

If you were to become "god" would you know that you are "god"? :twisted:

[Tb]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hi.

Interesting discussion, here's something to add to the stew.
Is it any difference between being a buddhist christian and a christian buddhist?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Tobiishi]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

A Buddhist Christian would be an original Christian who took up some Buddhist practice as a supplement to their life, possibly (though I don't see how) as a supplement to their faith.

A Christan Buddhist would be a convert. I don't think you could call yourself a Christian without actually converting, at which point your sincerity would immediately be questioned by your new Christian friends: "But why do you need that Buddha statue and that incense when you have God? Don't you know sitting like that with your head empty will invite the Devil into your heart?"

I'm not meaning to be disrespectful to Christians here, but most would agree that the acceptance issues between Buddhists and Christians is not a two-way street. I've read about the Dalai Llama telling Christians that if that's the faith they were raised with, for most it would be better to stick with it. I can't imagine Benny Hinn even inviting the Buddha to lunch.

(No, I don't consider ol' Benny to be a representative example of Christianity, but the metaphor needed some punch!)

[Rev R]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Is it any difference between being a buddhist christian and a christian buddhist?

Different their location in the Yellow Pages is.

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

A Buddhist Christian would be an original Christian who took up some Buddhist practice as a supplement to their life, possibly (though I don't see how) as a supplement to their faith.

A Christan Buddhist would be a convert. I don't think you could call yourself a Christian without actually converting, at which point your sincerity would immediately be questioned by your new Christian friends: "But why do you need that Buddha statue and that incense when you have God? Don't you know sitting like that with your head empty will invite the Devil into your heart?"

This is an interesting topic indeed, and one that touches on my life...

My wife is okay with my being Buddhist, so long as I am still Christian at the same time, and I have to refer to myself as a "Christian-Buddhist" if forced to explain. She thought it was more important to have the word "Christian" first so that is what sticks in peoples minds. She's really worried about what everyone thinks, and I don't completely blame her either given our family, friends and town we live in.

We left the religion of our youth (LDS aka Mormon) and so we're already looked down on, and now we have Buddha statues in our house, which when asked why my wife simply says "we're going for an asian theme" though there is much deeper meaning for me (not her) obviously. With that in mind, a month ago my brother-in-law at a family dinner asks a question, and here's how it played out:

BIL - "So are you guys Buddhists now?"
Wife - "No, why would you think that?"
BIL - "Well you have Buddha statues in your house, and everyone is saying you are now"
Wife - "They're just for decoration, that's all...and who is everyone and why would they say that?"
BIL - "Nevermind, it doesn't matter...we all just wondered as you're not LDS anymore"
Wife - "What does not being LDS have to do with it?"
BIL - "Well, you know how it is when people leave the church, they forget about God and become atheists, so I guess Buddhist would fit."
Wife - "We're still Christian, just not LDS, and we are NOT Buddhists"
(awkward silence)

It gets really annoying after a short while. I'm really not concerned with what people think about my practice or not, though clearly my wife is and is very adamant that "we are NOT Buddhists!" when asked...I just keep my mouth shut to keep the peace with everyone.

PS: I'm on a Christian-Buddhist mailing list, and there are some very interesting discussions on there. Everyone on the list are Christian, though are interested in, or incorporate Buddhist thinking and practice into their lives...they are very much still Christians though. (most anyway).

[Tobiishi]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Its interesting that some people can combine the two, and its good if it works for them... just doesn't work for me.

ScottyDoo, don't feel bad about being in the Buddha closet with friends & family- I haven't worked up the cojones to tell anyone but my brother.

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Its interesting that some people can combine the two, and its good if it works for them... just doesn't work for me.

The way that these people talk about it, I can see how it works for them, though I can't say it completely works for me either. Then again, I don't consider myself Christian, other than to keep the peace in my home and with my family. I joined the list in hopes of finding a balance to keep all parties happy...though I wouldn't say it's helping, nor is it really hurting either though...just not my cup of tea.

[Dosho]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Hi all,

I don't have anything profound to say here, but as someone who didn't grow up with a particular faith I find many of the stories told here to be heartbreaking. I am very fortunate to have a wife who completely supports me in learning about buddhism and zen and I'm realizing how rare that can be. So many of you persist in "going against the grain" to further your knowledge and practice of buddhism and I do find much inspiration in your struggle.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Yugen]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

ScottyDoo and Tobiah,
I am grateful for your thoughts here... I was raised in a Greek Orthodox family - uncles and relatives - priests the lot of them - my wife, sons and brother know that I have taken the precepts. I have not told my parents - the excuse I have convinced myself with is they're old (early 80s), it will upset them, they won't understand, etc. My uncle is a Greek Orthodox priest of some almost 60 years service - I would like nothing more than to have a long conversation with him about my experience, as well as his own. I can imagine the response: "why have you forsaken your culture and your family?" (I heard this remark when I married my wife, who is Unitarian Universalist and not Greek Orthodox) Culture, religion, and family are bonded together very closely and powerfully... what is the honest and compassionate thing to do? Is an attitude of peace-at-any-price honest or compassionate? This is a question I ask myself on a daily basis.

Gassho,
Alex

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

Is an attitude of peace-at-any-price honest or compassionate? This is a question I ask myself on a daily basis.

Excellent, yet difficult question to answer.

A question that Cheri Huber asks in one of her books has really got me thinking, and it fits this situation.

"Are you willing to give up your life for what you think other people might be thinking?"

I worry a lot about how my family would take the news, and if they would be accepting, etc, etc, etc. The problem is that I feel that I am holding myself and my practice back in many ways. I want to be open and compassionate with everyone, but I am constantly finding myself holding back when I feel like I have to worry about what I say.

Is this my issue more than theirs? Probably...why do I make it a problem?

[BrianP]

Re: Buddhism and GODthingy?

It is sad that many cannot openly talk about their Buddhist beliefs. I feel so privileged that I have a family that accept my Buddhism. My wife is not a regular meditator & does not like me going on retreats (thank whatever for Treeleaf) but when asked she will say she is a Buddhist and has said she wants a Buddhist funeral. I have often felt (usually when I feel anger rising) that my wife is a better Buddhist in some ways than me ops: .

I work a few hours a week as Buddhist Chaplain in a local prison & for some years was chaplain for three prisons. I gave two up a couple of years ago and handed over to someone else. This was partly due to becoming weary in my old age of the obstructive tactics of some of the evangelical people in charge. I did feel however, that I made many friends among the other religions and look forward to meeting them at our area meetings.

The prison I still work in has a much more relaxed attitude and I can go around and do much as I wish without obstruction and in fact with considerable support. They even paid me the honour of presenting me with the award of "Chaplain of the Year" at our annual Christmas lunch! They have even recently appointed a Pagan chaplain who it is said is a witch, much to the amusement of our Coordinating Chaplain and the horror of fundamentalists in the other prisons. She is in fact a lovely person with an interest and respect for Buddhism.

However difficult it may be, we should try gently to get others to accept our point of view and show them respect for theirs.

Lastly this may be of interest. It is Juyu Kennet`s take on the Godthingy.

http://www.obcon.org/Dhrmatlk/RM%20Jiyu ... aining.mp3

Gassho,
Daiku