Discrimination in the SZBA: Small Changes, BIG BARRIERS

[Shonin Risa Bear]

Perhaps Rome will recall that according to a decision that was recorded (so I have heard), if there is no water in a desert place but only sand, and a baptism is required to be performed, sand will do. _()_

gassho
ds sat and some lah

[Heiso]

Well, think of it from a different perspective: one trains hard before ordination and harder after and it is not something one dives into on his days off.. or at least it should not be. It is called home-leaving for a reason and master Keizan pointed to two types of home leaving, but they both involved one pouring oneself into their commitment completely. Not everyone can be a priest and that’s ok, if there are responsibilities one puts before their priesthood. ( this is not about the disabilities issue, but rather the “no time off” issue [emoji1] )
Sorry for running long


[emoji1374] Sat Today

I guess the point I was meaning to make was more that the requirements seem to be disproportionately prohibitive to those without the means to support themselves, rather than people who just can't get time off work.

I take the point that this thread is specifically about disabilities though and don't want to sidetrack things so will leave it there.

Gassho

Heiso
StLah

[Bion]

I guess the point I was meaning to make was more that the requirements seem to be disproportionately prohibitive to those without the means to support themselves, rather than people who just can't get time off work.

I take the point that this thread is specifically about disabilities though and don't want to sidetrack things so will leave it there.

Gassho

Heiso
StLah

Again, one has the option to serve and practice to the best of their abilities as a lay person, if certain requirements seem too much. There’s fortunately A LOT all of us can do for the sangha and for all other beings as lay practitioners and ESPECIALLY as boddhisatvas, once having received the precepts. [emoji1] [emoji1374]

I believe it was Uchiyama-roshi who said that if one wants to be a monk, they should find a good master and place to practice and do that loyally without preferences or judgments of good and bad, for ten years, after that, another 10 and after those twenty, another ten. (Proves the seriousness of the commitment and sacrifice). We can’t all be clergy.

Sorry for running long AGAIN and Heiso, please read this in a friendly tone [emoji1]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Ryumon]

I didn't go through this thread to see if this was mentioned elsewhere, but while preparing this week's Zen of Everything podcast, I went to the SZBA website, and they say this:

SZBA Equity Statement
The Soto Zen Buddhist Association seeks to make Zen practice available to everyone. We work to transform barriers based on race, ethnicity, gender identity, religion, political affiliation, economic class, sexual orientation, age, and ability. We find harmony in both our differences and what we share.

I'm sure they'll say that only means practitioners, but it is a pretty clear statement that they are supposed to allow anyone. Also, economic class, as others have said above, prevents many from taking the time to become priests. Just saying...

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

[Bion]

Discrimination in the SZBA: Small Changes, BIG BARRIERS

I didn't go through this thread to see if this was mentioned elsewhere, but while preparing this week's Zen of Everything podcast, I went to the SZBA website, and they say this:

SZBA Equity Statement
The Soto Zen Buddhist Association seeks to make Zen practice available to everyone. We work to transform barriers based on race, ethnicity, gender identity, religion, political affiliation, economic class, sexual orientation, age, and ability. We find harmony in both our differences and what we share.

I'm sure they'll say that only means practitioners, but it is a pretty clear statement that they are supposed to allow anyone. Also, economic class, as others have said above, prevents many from taking the time to become priests. Just saying...

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

Well, in that case, NOTHING about priesthood in Soto Zen is accessible to the poor.. robes can cost from 600 euros upwards, a “proper” Japanese oryoki set is again hundreds of Euros, registering with Soto-shu (if one chooses to) is another whatever tens of dollars etc .. Playing the devil’s advocate here a bit, not on behalf of the SZBA, since that is such an American thing, but on behalf of the “institution” of priesthood. It is the Japanese replacement for the old monkhood.. It is meant to be an effort and a calling and is in no way necessary for one’s personal practice. I don’t think it’s reasonable for anyone to expect to just sit comfortably at home, becoming ordained in his spare time, in between Netflix shows and tasks for work. Also, you mentioned “taking time off to become ordained” and that I believe is not even close to what priesthood means. Please picture me saying this with a smile on my face and not in an “argumentative” kind of way. [emoji2309] [emoji2309] [emoji2309]

Again, please excuse the length of this. I will limit my comments for the day ..

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Meian]

Speaking as a member of the intended population that the SZBA's requirements bar even from membership --

-- What "certain requirements" are necessary for priesthood, other than what Jundo has mentioned?

-- What the SZBA says it welcomes, versus its requirements for membership, are two very different things. Its list for eligibility is prohibitive, and I and a few other people would not qualify for membership. I made this clear on my survey. Costs are also prohibitive, and people living with chronic illness/disability generally do not have the financial means to afford "extras" and added expenses become a luxury.

-- With no disrespect intended to anyone, it bothers me when people who may not be in the intended population, discuss whether rules and requirements should apply to us -- when we've already said that it is discriminatory. This is where the slogan "Nothing about us without us" comes in. Some find it annoying, but it's quite cogent.

Just giving my opinion, as a person living with chronic illness and disability for years. It's an expensive life, and even daily living is a battle, let alone qualifying for someone else's rules.

gassho, meian st lh

[Kokuu]

We can’t all be clergy.

Indeed not, but if one of the reasons we can't all be clergy is disability that could easily be catered for, what does that say about Zen as a practice? Imagine instead that we excluded clergy on the basis of race, gender or sexual orientation.

Also, what does Zen miss out on by not having disabled people in teaching positions? I think that Zen has changed for the better by having more women as teachers, providing a different perspective, likewise teachers of colour. I can similarly see that having disabled teachers infuses Zen with a new viewpoint.

That said, I agree that priesthood is a pretty elitist thing and, as with Zen in general in the west, seems to be occupied mostly (although not exclusively) by those from higher social classes with college educations. At Treeleaf I would hope there is provision for people on lower incomes to have ther robes paid for or at least subsidised but I don't know if that is true everywhere.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Indeed not, but if one of the reasons we can't all be clergy is disability that could easily be catered for, what does that say about Zen as a practice? Imagine instead that we excluded clergy on the basis of race, gender or sexual orientation.

Also, what does Zen miss out on by not having disabled people in teaching positions? I think that Zen has changed for the better by having more women as teachers, providing a different perspective, likewise teachers of colour. I can similarly see that having disabled teachers infuses Zen with a new viewpoint.

That said, I agree that priesthood is a pretty elitist thing and, as with Zen in general in the west, seems to be occupied mostly (although not exclusively) by those from higher social classes with college educations. At Treeleaf I would hope there is provision for people on lower incomes to have ther robes paid for or at least subsidised but I don't know if that is true everywhere.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I mentioned before, I was in no moment referring to anything related to disabilities. That’s a different topic and I’m not qualified AT ALL to speak about it and I can merely listen to the experiences of those of you who actually deal with that.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Playing the devil’s advocate here a bit, not on behalf of the SZBA, since that is such an American thing, but on behalf of the “institution” of priesthood. It is the Japanese replacement for the old monkhood.. It is meant to be an effort and a calling and is in no way necessary for one’s personal practice. I don’t think it’s reasonable for anyone to expect to just sit comfortably at home, becoming ordained in his spare time, in between Netflix shows and tasks for work.

I don't see priesthood like that at all. Neither my practice nor priesthood occurs between anything. Rather it encompasses the totality of my life. Neither practice nor priesthood is something to pick up or put down.

Priesthood includes sitting comfortably at home, letting the body unwind and relax before doing something else, doing work tasks, which may involve communicating with colleagues or performing duties to the best of one's ability, even watching Netflix, as we see the drama of what it is to be human unfold before us in all of its ups and downs resulting from actions that have been performed each pixel on the screen as much a manifestation of the whole universe as anything else.

Sitting comfortably at home is saving all beings.
Doing work tasks is saving all beings.
Performing priest duties at Treeleaf is saving all beings.
Watching Netflix is saving all beings.

For me priesthood and practice are both seamless. There is no between or gaps. The Buddha's robe covers everything. To see it only as when we put on the kesa and perform as ino, interact with the sangha or engage in dharma study would be, in my opinion, to miss what being a priest is.

Apologies for running long.

Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Tosei]

Thank you for this, Kokuu. Wisdom and heart, one breath.

Gassho.

Satlah.

[Jundo]

... Well, in that case, NOTHING about priesthood in Soto Zen is accessible to the poor.. robes can cost from 600 euros upwards, a “proper” Japanese oryoki set is again hundreds of Euros ...

Here, we pay for that with donations or find an inexpensive alternative, if someone cannot afford. Becoming a priest should not be dependent on buying gear.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

Here, we pay for that with donations or find an inexpensive alternative, if someone cannot afford. Becoming a priest should not be dependent on buying gear.

Gassho, J

STLah

Oh yes, I know that! I was referring to what you already know is the cost in general for certain things. It’s definitely not cheap by any means [emoji1]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Bion]

I don't see priesthood like that at all. Neither my practice nor priesthood occurs between anything. Rather it encompasses the totality of my life. Neither practice nor priesthood is something to pick up or put down.

Priesthood includes sitting comfortably at home, letting the body unwind and relax before doing something else, doing work tasks, which may involve communicating with colleagues or performing duties to the best of one's ability, even watching Netflix, as we see the drama of what it is to be human unfold before us in all of its ups and downs resulting from actions that have been performed each pixel on the screen as much a manifestation of the whole universe as anything else.

Sitting comfortably at home is saving all beings.
Doing work tasks is saving all beings.
Performing priest duties at Treeleaf is saving all beings.
Watching Netflix is saving all beings.

For me priesthood and practice are both seamless. There is no between or gaps. The Buddha's robe covers everything. To see it only as when we put on the kesa and perform as ino, interact with the sangha or engage in dharma study would be, in my opinion, to miss what being a priest is.

Apologies for running long.

Kokuu
-sattoday-

I think you misinterpreted what I said completely. I apologize for not making myself clearer.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Meian]

Thank you for this, Kokuu. Wisdom and heart, one breath.

Gassho.

Satlah.

Gassho2

--sat--

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[Shinzan]

Hui Neng would not have been admissible!

Stla