Discrimination in the SZBA: Small Changes, BIG BARRIERS

[Doshin]

Thanks Jundo. I sort of answered my question when writing it so I deleted it. However your explanation is better than mine.

Doshin
st

[Wabo]

I think we have touched on a topic that is more global than SZBA policy. We need to act wisely. American Zen is looks to Japanese, because if there is no such practice in Japan itself, then SZBA will always be able to refer to traditions.

Gassho
Wabo
ST

[Raymund]

Given that the pandemic is not yet over I just hope that one day SZBA would come to accept that virtual sitting and zendo might become the "new normal" for monastic training someday.

Just my thought.

Gassho
Raymund
SatLah

[Yamabushi]

I believe it was Alan Watts who wrote something to the effect that when a religion's clergy demand something be a certain way it marks the death throws of said religion.

It was Shunryu Suzuki who said that when Buddhism enters a new country it changes to adapt to that culture. Suzuki noted that in the U.S. Soto Zen practitioners we neither priests nor lay persons. The sewing of the rakusu and jukai ceremony for the purpose of lay ordination sort of go along these lines.

I have recently started to contemplate the future of Soto Zen. I believe the customs and ceremonies have purpose, but are not of the greatest importance. Dogen himself stressed zazen over everything else. I look forward to seeing how Buddhism will continue to evolve as the Dharma Wheel turns.

I personally paused my preparation for jukai. I still have at least 5 years before I am eligible for retirement. I have 3 sons entering adulthood who need my help getting on their feet. I have a marriage I am trying to repair and restore. I do not have time for sesshin or sewing the Buddha's robe. Maybe in my next rebirth.

It saddens me that there are those who do not suffer the same time restraints as I and who wish to serve as a Zen priest, but rules prevent them. My Soto Zen Sensei is not affiliated with SZBA. He recently took 4 of his students to his home temple in Japan for their ordination. Maybe there is another way?

Gassho,

-Jared
(Sat Today)

[Wabo]

I think we need to keep a balance in this regard. The Buddha laid down many rules for his followers. This is what makes Buddhism, not say Wicca (an it harm none, do what ye will).

Fixation makes the mind dogmatic. The absence of rules threatens us with the risk of losing the Way. I think the liveliness of the tradition is determined by the ability to seek this middle path.

I like Treeleaf, and i like Jundo that he can combine it both. My former sangha has become some kind of a calligraphy club with zazen... And here I find regular practice.

Gassho
Wabo
ST/LAH

[Jishin]

https://youtu.be/ZVGDzne7cRQ

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Tai Shi]

Please correct me! How do I talk to you, when I was taught to always write in the first person I and make myself an example? Where do I begin?
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Meian]

Given that the pandemic is not yet over I just hope that one day SZBA would come to accept that virtual sitting and zendo might become the "new normal" for monastic training someday.

Just my thought.

Gassho
Raymund
SatLah

Speaking as a person in a chronic illness population, I think this would be great, and even better perhaps, if virtual sitting, ceremonies, and monastic training might become an "also normal" with the SZBA. One does not necessarily need to replace the other. Why not both/and? Just my opinion.

Gassho, meian stlh

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[Tai Shi]

I am expecting and hopefully will be in service as lay member for UBASOKU and deep gratitude and allowing service in our Zendo no matter why it happened to me.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Daitetsu]

Was Bodhidharma member of the Soto Zen Buddhist Association?

Gassho,

大哲

#sat2day

[Tai Shi]

Apologies in advance.

I've studied all I can find of nun life in China and Japan and I think all along, at least in China, there's been a place for those who are active and self-supporting in cloistered and/or family settings, but without having it required of them that they meet ableist standards rooted in a liturgy and physicality of ritual that reflects court ritual from Imperial China. Historically, no one with so much as a limp could serve in the Emperor's bureaucracy, which is reputedly how we got the self-exile of Han Shan, who was "perfect" until he was thrown from his horse.

Several years ago, Rev. Gesshin Greenwood had a blog post (no longer extant) featuring a decision tree depicting the Soto life path. It humorously but inexorably led from hearing about Zen to becoming a layperson in a rakusu, to novice, to full priest, to teacher, to abbott. I thought, here is a recipe for "too many cooks."

Of nuns in ancient China, Dr. Karen Carr says: "Inside the monastery, women cleaned and cooked, but they also sang prayer chants and played musical instruments like gongs and bells. Many Buddhist nuns spent most of their day spinning, weaving, or working in the fields, just like other women of their time." Elsewhere I have read that many indeed ran shops or stayed home to help their elderly parents, showing up at the temple only on special occasions.

That's how I envision my life: time divided between cooking and cleaning, homestead maintenance, planting and maintaining trees, and raising and preserving food. And showing up at zazenkai when I can.

I do feel called to exemplify Buddha in my "sitting" -- such as it is -- and in my "doing" -- such as it is -- yet he recommended some separation, a home leaving, for at least some of his volunteer examplars. I'm all for it. But ultimately this led to the rigorous home-leaving of Japan's teaching monasteries, with some practices bordering (to my eye) on the abusive sadhu practices tried, and then repudiated, by Buddha himself (the Middle Way).

Did we all skip ahead from emptiness to form and forget how even the form and formlessness of a blade of grass preaches all dharma endlessly?

This has tangled up me and others in the West as we have no, or very few, temple systems and parishioners to subsist on, so we hang out at home and cosplay with bells, candles and robes intermittently and refer to ourselves as "priests." I have heard of some in Japan who have read or heard of all this and that their response was akin to a double take and "what??" Could the SZBA be simply trying to add some spine-stiffening to our Zen culture so as to stand up to scrutiny from the Soto-shu as to our legitimacy?

To which I'm tempted to respond, why bother?

I aspired to the nun life but felt that requiring of nuns that they be also priests expected to serve at the altar and leading chants struck me as likely to lead to undue stress.

My life does seem to differ in some way/ways from that of most of the laypeople around me. I've dedicated a considerable portion of it to the very altar work and etc. that I "cannot" by SZBA standards do.

Personally I'm a lot like Chudapanthaka, unable to hold the chants and dance steps in my head, along with inability to hear and coordinate with what the other officiants are doing, or often unable to sit up even in a chair for long enough to make it through a sit, and needing to pee and poo suddenly and irregularly during longer events. Also I'm prone to random seizures. So, as the difficulties mounted, I considered telling my brick-and-mortar sangha, before Covid, that I'd probably soon be hanging up my robe.

And what of those whose condition prevents any physical form of way-entering? We tell them they are not qualified, like Han Shan?

Zoom has made continued participation possible in my case. Yay Zoom and its like.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7388[/ATTACH]

"When Ma-tsu certified P’ang’s awakening, he asked him if he would put on the black robe or continue to wear white."

Maybe our cultural setting requires a third option: some kind of gray. "Home-leaving" as we have modified it but no expectation of a curriculum that must end in failure if we do not make full priest, let alone abbott. Chop wood, carry water, chant metta, or whatever one can do between the extremes of book Zen and waterfall-meditation Zen. Just another monk, just another nun.

Continuing to chop wood and carry water,

gassho,

ds sat and lah

My apologies to Jundo! I did not mean to criticize. Let me slide by. Thank you [emoji120]

Someone asked about Bodhidharma. I checked my Bodhisattva Archetypes abd He is an incarnation of the Avalokiteshvare. And in Tibet since the 17th Century The 5th Dali Lama is an incarnation of him. The current 14th, retired, Ddli Lama is him “of compassion “ in Chan/Zen in Chinab he is “spiritual leader.”
Great Buddhist master from India who arrived at the court of Emperor Wu of Liang in Southern China, a great patron of Buddhism “ practitioner who built many monasteries, translated many sutras. Bodidharma “asked what merit he had accrued V by his good works,” Bodidharma replied no merit.” “Emperor asked what is highest meaning of this sacred truth?” Bodidharma said, “Vast emptiness, nothing Holly.” “Who is this?” Bodhidharma said, “I don’t know.” Emperor did not understand. Bodhidharma crossed the Yangez River to Wei in Northern China. The story goes on that the Emperor said he would not return.Bodidharma abandoned him. An immediate response in the Lotus Sutra a compassionate way to awaken the Emperor. As I have heard Jundo say there are many stories about Bodidharma and he seems to me a legendary man. Perhaps he is best noted for carrying Buddhism to China. After leaving the Emperor he sat wall gazing in a cave for 9 years. Bodhidharma tested a monk as to being serious to study with him. The story is convoluted but Bodhidharma finally accepted the monk who cut off his own arm, handed it to Bodhidharma and he accepted the monk, and the legend remains that the monk is the second patriarch though hie arm was probably cut off by bandits. I find this represents the strictness of Avalokitshashavara, the embodiment of Bodhidharma. Long explanation and Jundo please forgive. I recommend. Bodhisattva Aacrtypea, classic Buddhist Guides Awakening… this book was recommended some time ago by Jundo.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Jundo]

My apologies to Jundo! I did not mean to criticize. Let me slide by. Thank you [emoji120]

Someone asked about Bodhidharma. I checked my Bodhisattva Archetypes abd He is an incarnation of the Avalokiteshvare. And in Tibet since the 17th Century The 5th Dali Lama is an incarnation of him. The current 14th, retired, Ddli Lama is him “of compassion “ in Chan/Zen in Chinab he is “spiritual leader.”
Great Buddhist master from India who arrived at the court of Emperor Wu of Liang in Southern China, a great patron of Buddhism “ practitioner who built many monasteries, translated many sutras. Bodidharma “asked what merit he had accrued V by his good works,” Bodidharma replied no merit.” “Emperor asked what is highest meaning of this sacred truth?” Bodidharma said, “Vast emptiness, nothing Holly.” “Who is this?” Bodhidharma said, “I don’t know.” Emperor did not understand. Bodhidharma crossed the Yangez River to Wei in Northern China. The story goes on that the Emperor said he would not return.Bodidharma abandoned him. An immediate response in the Lotus Sutra a compassionate way to awaken the Emperor. As I have heard Jundo say there are many stories about Bodidharma and he seems to me a legendary man. Perhaps he is best noted for carrying Buddhism to China. After leaving the Emperor he sat wall gazing in a cave for 9 years. Bodhidharma tested a monk as to being serious to study with him. The story is convoluted but Bodhidharma finally accepted the monk who cut off his own arm, handed it to Bodhidharma and he accepted the monk, and the legend remains that the monk is the second patriarch though hie arm was probably cut off by bandits. I find this represents the strictness of Avalokitshashavara, the embodiment of Bodhidharma. Long explanation and Jundo please forgive. I recommend. Bodhisattva Aacrtypea, classic Buddhist Guides Awakening… this book was recommended some time ago by Jundo.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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Hi TS ...

In fact, in Taigen's book on "Bodhisattva Archetypes" (a very good book) ...

https://wisdomexperience.org/product/faces-compassion/

... he does point out that, according to some beliefs, Bodhidharma (as well as the Dalai Lama) were/are said by some to be incarnations of Kannon.

Yes, much about Bodhidharma is probably legend (although still filled with "truths" in the wisdom and compassion conveyed by the stories), and the arm cutting part is one such legend, probably about another monk who lost an arm to bandits.

In any case, I do recommend the book, and it is on our recommended list ...

Suggested Books & Media

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?5711-Suggested-Books-Media

... although there is absolutely NO MERIT in reading it!

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

PS - On the lost arm ... Alas, this may have come about because losing an arm in a "regular" way like a robbery or to disease or accident was just too "inglorious" for a story, so had to be turned into a sacred legend of sacrifice (much like Jesus on the cross like a common criminal with thieves had to be made a tale of sacred sacrifice for our sins). Thus, the origin of the story may actually be another kind of discrimination against the disabled in a small way.

[Daitetsu]

Hello Tai Shi,

Thanks a lot for all this information.
Of course, I know who Bodhidharma was - my question was of a more rhetorical nature:
I am quite sure he was not member of the SZBA, yet we'd all agree he was authentic, right?
I don't care about any associations or organizations. That's just a layer of bureaucracy trying to impose its definition of right and wrong.

When it comes to Zen, what I care about is what Jundo, other Zen teachers and Sangha members have to say. I don't need SZBA's approval though...

Gassho,

大哲

#sat2day

[Bion]

Hello Tai Shi,

Thanks a lot for all this information.
Of course, I know who Bodhidharma was - my question was of a more rhetorical nature:
I am quite sure he was not member of the SZBA, yet we'd all agree he was authentic, right?
I don't care about any associations or organizations. That's just a layer of bureaucracy trying to impose its definition of right and wrong.

When it comes to Zen, what I care about is what Jundo, other Zen teachers and Sangha members have to say. I don't need SZBA's approval though...

Gassho,

大哲

#sat2day

It’s not about approval, but about recognition. Imagine you are a graduated architect and then no one in the architecture world would recognize your qualifications or consider you an architect or accept any work you do as valid even though you are trained and capable. Something like that…

[emoji1374] Sat Today