Dull, sleepy zazen

[Chikyou]

I came looking for a thread like this because I've had exactly this problem at various times, but especially today. Now I see that it is no problem at all.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Houzan]

Thank you for looking for this thread and commenting, KellyLM, and thank you Inshin for sharing your experience. Also very useful for me. This 'accepting' and 'letting go' is such a subtle yet powerful practice - so easy yet so difficult.

Michael
satlah

[Tai Shi]

I suggest that we begin two or three more groups during each day. It it's I who asked, and is this impolite to ask to Host, and perhaps out of 3000 members only 5 or 2 o 3 people show up for groups. We offer three groups and this simple group could be offered other times so others could participate in simple Shikantaza. and we might state where we have lent a hand. I offer my services as I have volunteered to intrude on those who already Host.
Gassho.
sat/ah
Tai Shi

[Jimbob]

I suggest that we begin two or three more groups during each day. It it's I who asked, and is this impolite to ask to Host, and perhaps out of 3000 members only 5 or 2 o 3 people show up for groups. We offer three groups and this simple group could be offered other times so others could participate in simple Shikantaza. and we might state where we have lent a hand. I offer my services as I have volunteered to intrude on those who already Host.
Gassho.
sat/ah
Tai Shi

You’d make a wonderful host, Tai Shi. Sadly, for reasons we discussed earlier, I won’t be around to join you. Thank you for your extremely kind words at today’s afternoon sit, and also our great friend, Zenkon.

[Chikyou]

The subject of sleepy Zazen has been on my mind regularly lately - I know when I'm starting to fall asleep, because my eyes start to close and my subconscious cuts loose with running nonsensical thoughts (ever see a cockatoo that has learned speech but not meaning go on a wild rant? LOL that's what my mind is like in that state. No more conscious thought). I then try to get myself out of that state (while seeing it as no bad thing that I got there in the first place).

Sometimes I seem to drop right through sleep and come out the other side into something profound.

Gassho
SatLah
Kelly

[Ryumon]

The subject of sleepy Zazen has been on my mind regularly lately - I know when I'm starting to fall asleep, because my eyes start to close and my subconscious cuts loose with running nonsensical thoughts (ever see a cockatoo that has learned speech but not meaning go on a wild rant? LOL that's what my mind is like in that state. No more conscious thought). I then try to get myself out of that state (while seeing it as no bad thing that I got there in the first place).

Sometimes I seem to drop right through sleep and come out the other side into something profound.

Gassho
SatLah
Kelly

That sounds like hypnagogic hallucinations. I get them often when I take naps in the afternoon, just before I fall asleep. They’re lots of fun.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Jundo]

That sounds like hypnagogic hallucinations. I get them often when I take naps in the afternoon, just before I fall asleep. They’re lots of fun.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

I believe that whole Mahayana Sutras were written in such states.

During a week long Sesshin at Sojiji, I once had a little cute Buddha jump out of the wall, start talking to me, pinched me, danced around and jumped back in the wall. It seemed to go on for a few minutes. Nice little fella.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Chikyou]

That sounds like hypnagogic hallucinations. I get them often when I take naps in the afternoon, just before I fall asleep. They’re lots of fun.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

It doesn't feel like hypnagogic hallucinations, which in my experience come along with paralysis and are terrifying. It's just like my normal thoughts, except they are random and disjointed, not following any "train of thought" just random images and words.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Ryumon]

It doesn't feel like hypnagogic hallucinations, which in my experience come along with paralysis and are terrifying. It's just like my normal thoughts, except they are random and disjointed, not following any "train of thought" just random images and words.

"While some types of hallucinations are a cause for concern, many people experience harmless hallucinations as they are falling asleep. They are called hypnagogic hallucinations, and they are fairly common. You may hear or see things that seem real while you are in the state between waking and sleeping. Other senses, such as smell and touch, may also be involved.*"

And...

"Sometimes, hypnagogic hallucinations happen along with a state of sleep paralysis. In sleep paralysis, the muscles in your body will be immobile, and you won’t be able to move. The combination of immobility and hallucinations can be frightening. It can last for up to several minutes before your muscles return to normal."

https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/what-are-hypnagogic-hallucinations

There are similar, but happen at different times.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

[Jundo]

It is a good time to post a reminder about Makyo ... little unusual experiences and hallucinations during Zazen, often caused by the mild "sensory deprivation" effect on the senses, the percolating up of old memories in the quiet of sitting, the effect of the quiet, being on the border of sleep and wakefulness (as in this case). The rule of thumb is that, if mild and only once in a long while, enjoy the show and move on. If too severe, break off Zazen for that sitting. If persistant, there may be other issues at work that need further examination.

In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. Once, during a Sesshin, I became irate inside because I felt the monk at Sojiji sitting next to me was "encroaching on my space". I once had a little Buddha pop out of the wall and chat with me for several minutes (I pinched myself ... he stayed!), and felt like I was floating in the air. It is common during Sesshin, because of the strains involved, the "sensory deprivation", to experience such things as emotional swings, hearing becoming so sharp you can be disturbed by an ant walking across the room, strange bodily sensations such as feelings of floating or being giant sized, and paranoia.

~~~~

Short Version:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16440-To-sit-through-sensations-%28makyo-%29-or-not&p=228822&viewfull=1#post228822

Long Version:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16440-To-sit-through-sensations-%28makyo-%29-or-not&p=228823&viewfull=1#post228823

Gassho, J

stlah

[Chikyou]

"While some types of hallucinations are a cause for concern, many people experience harmless hallucinations as they are falling asleep. They are called hypnagogic hallucinations, and they are fairly common. You may hear or see things that seem real while you are in the state between waking and sleeping. Other senses, such as smell and touch, may also be involved.*"

And...

"Sometimes, hypnagogic hallucinations happen along with a state of sleep paralysis. In sleep paralysis, the muscles in your body will be immobile, and you won’t be able to move. The combination of immobility and hallucinations can be frightening. It can last for up to several minutes before your muscles return to normal."

https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/what-are-hypnagogic-hallucinations

There are similar, but happen at different times.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

Interesting! It's still not that though. It's my usual thoughts, just faster and random. Definitely not hallucinations. I have a non stop inner monologue, and I experience hyperfantasia. (Actually, when it comes to Zazen, the inner monologue that won't turn off is the only thing that's really an issue - I struggle to stop narrating my experience! )

I have also had Makyo experiences that Jundo talks about below. It's a totally different thing.

Sorry to run long
Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Chikyou]

Revisiting this thread to say this: I realized that my posture wasn't as good as I thought it was, and over the past couple of weeks I have been careful to correct it. Doing so helped IMMENSELY with nodding off during sitting practice.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Jundo]

Revisiting this thread to say this: I realized that my posture wasn't as good as I thought it was, and over the past couple of weeks I have been careful to correct it. Doing so helped IMMENSELY with nodding off during sitting practice.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly