Dull, sleepy zazen

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  • Inshin
    Member
    • Jul 2020
    • 557

    Dull, sleepy zazen

    I'd like to share my zazen experience that I thought may be helpful for some, so I apologise it will be longer than 3 sentences.
    For a while I've been struggling with dull sleepy zazens. There's so much info already on the net how to deal with it but I've asked Jundo for help.
    Accept the dullness when dullness comes, but hold a profound, abiding
    faith and trust deep in the bones, unvoiced, that sitting itself is a
    sacred doing, all the Buddhas and Ancestors sitting now in the place
    where one is sitting, this Zafu on Vulture Peak, all the universe in the
    10 direction held within this spot, shining like a jewel.

    Then, just be dull.
    My initial thought was "Say what? Just be dull? But everywhere else it says something else! Nahh". But I've listened. And it turned out that, what I thought I was accepting in zazen was simple observation and noting, the type of noting so often thaught in various mindfulness practices. That however, has duality of observer and observed. So when the dullness appeared I would note its presence, wrongly believing I was accepting it, but on a very subtle level there was still resistance to it and the need to fight it off, to do something with it. Then I finally gave up : let it be, if I fall asleep on the cushion let it be, if it's a bad zazen, let it be. I've merged with the heaviness of dullness and sleepiness letting the eyelids drop. And then something strange happened : instead of falling asleep my breath naturally became very short and rhythmic. After some time it calmed down into stillness and I found myself with eyes open in blissfully focused and energised clarity.
    This clarity is not important in itself, just another state of mind, just like the dullness was. Who knows, maybe next time I'll fall asleep on my zafu. What I found important though, is to truly accept whatever state I'm finding myself in, merging with whatever condition presents itself, dropping all the resistance and attachment freely being in the flow of impermanence. A glimpse of Shikantaza. So much more sitting to sit.
    Now I understand why Shikantaza is not a meditation that dualisticly uses various techniques and conscious manipulation of body energy (sorry Jundo, I'm a slow learner, you keep talking about it all the time).

    Deep bows.
    Gassho
    Sat
  • Bion
    Treeleaf Unsui
    • Aug 2020
    • 4581

    #2
    Also, if it’s a pattern lately, you might just be tired and you need to sit at a different time. It’s cool to accept and observe, but it’s also wise to understand that sometimes the body tells you it needs something you’re not giving it.

    [emoji1374] SatToday
    "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

    Comment

    • Ryumon
      Member
      • Apr 2007
      • 1798

      #3
      Don't forget that we're in a global pandemic, so, some things may not function as they normally do.

      Gassho,

      Ryūmon

      sat
      I know nothing.

      Comment

      • Inshin
        Member
        • Jul 2020
        • 557

        #4
        Originally posted by Bion
        Also, if it’s a pattern lately, you might just be tired and you need to sit at a different time. It’s cool to accept and observe, but it’s also wise to understand that sometimes the body tells you it needs something you’re not giving it.

        [emoji1374] SatToday
        Bodhidharma ripped his eyelids off
        If we try to create perfect conditions and look for perfect timing to sit Zazen we may not end up sitting much. I think it might be worth it to use some effort and practice in challenging conditions. As lay practitioners we will hardly ever experience "hard core" Zazen and practice as in some monasteries.

        Gassho
        Sat

        Comment

        • Bion
          Treeleaf Unsui
          • Aug 2020
          • 4581

          #5
          Originally posted by Inshin
          Bodhidharma ripped his eyelids off
          If we try to create perfect conditions and look for perfect timing to sit Zazen we may not end up sitting much. I think it might be worth it to use some effort and practice in challenging conditions. As lay practitioners we will hardly ever experience "hard core" Zazen and practice as in some monasteries.

          Gassho
          Sat
          From the Soto-shu official website: “Avoid sitting when you haven't had sufficient sleep or when you are physically exhausted. Before sitting, eat moderately and avoid alcohol. Wash your face and feet so that you feel refreshed.”

          When you do zazen, find a quiet place where you can sit without disturbances. It should be neither too dark nor too bright, warm in the winter and cool in the summer. The sitting place should be neat and clean.


          [emoji1374] SatToday
          "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

          Comment

          • Shokon
            Member
            • Dec 2020
            • 11

            #6
            I found that early in my practice my body seemed to equate stillness and 'soft eyes' with sleep and so it was a struggle to stay awake. After practicing a while, it ceased to be an issue, and I can now sit even when I'm tired and the urge toward sleep is never an issue. My body just needed to learn that zazen is not a sleep thing...
            Gassho, Shōkon
            昭魂 - Bright Spirit
            Sat Today

            Comment

            • Horin
              Member
              • Dec 2017
              • 389

              #7
              Inshin, I know it as well, and that are things that also pass in my experience. So just keep sitting

              Gassho

              Horin

              Stlah

              Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk

              Comment

              • Bokucho
                Member
                • Dec 2018
                • 264

                #8
                Originally posted by Inshin
                Bodhidharma ripped his eyelids off [emoji14]
                If we try to create perfect conditions and look for perfect timing to sit Zazen we may not end up sitting much. I think it might be worth it to use some effort and practice in challenging conditions.
                Exactly this! If I listened to my lazy mind/body every time it tried to make an excuse to not sit, I would have missed out on some very beneficial Zazen. Thank you for sharing, I think we all struggle with it from time to time.

                Gassho,

                Bokuchō
                SatToday/LaH


                Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

                Comment

                • Shoki
                  Member
                  • Apr 2015
                  • 580

                  #9
                  Bad zazen? "There is no bad zazen." Jundo.

                  Gassho
                  STlah
                  Shoki

                  Comment

                  • Tairin
                    Member
                    • Feb 2016
                    • 2826

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Inshin
                    Bodhidharma ripped his eyelids off
                    If we try to create perfect conditions and look for perfect timing to sit Zazen we may not end up sitting much. I think it might be worth it to use some effort and practice in challenging conditions. As lay practitioners we will hardly ever experience "hard core" Zazen and practice as in some monasteries.

                    Gassho
                    Sat
                    Right! I make it a priority to sit every day at my designated time regardless of the conditions because I know if I wait for the ideal conditions I may not sit at all.


                    Tairin
                    Sat today and lah
                    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

                    Comment

                    • Seikan
                      Member
                      • Apr 2020
                      • 712

                      #11
                      I've struggled with sleepy/murky zazen off an on quite a bit this past year. I used to fight it more and try to "correct" my practice to align with my ideals. However, thanks to Jundo's wonderful perspectives on Shikantaza, I've slowly become more accepting of it as just another type of "weather" in the clear blue sky of zazen.

                      Consider a leaf flowing down a stream. Trying to change our zazen to be how we "think" it should be is like the leaf trying to float upstream. Quite often, the leaf will become stuck on a rock or a branch, and it may remain stuck there for some time. But eventually it will break free and continue to flow with the stream. Trust in the current of practice. Sometimes we flow easily and gently, other times we bump into all sorts of things along the way. It's all part of the journey.

                      Gassho,
                      Seikan

                      -stlah-

                      (Apologies for running long...)


                      Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
                      聖簡 Seikan (Sacred Simplicity)

                      Comment

                      • JimInBC
                        Member
                        • Jan 2021
                        • 125

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Inshin
                        I'd like to share my zazen experience that I thought may be helpful for some, so I apologise it will be longer than 3 sentences.
                        For a while I've been struggling with dull sleepy zazens. There's so much info already on the net how to deal with it but I've asked Jundo for help.

                        My initial thought was "Say what? Just be dull? But everywhere else it says something else! Nahh". But I've listened. And it turned out that, what I thought I was accepting in zazen was simple observation and noting, the type of noting so often thaught in various mindfulness practices. That however, has duality of observer and observed. So when the dullness appeared I would note its presence, wrongly believing I was accepting it, but on a very subtle level there was still resistance to it and the need to fight it off, to do something with it. Then I finally gave up : let it be, if I fall asleep on the cushion let it be, if it's a bad zazen, let it be. I've merged with the heaviness of dullness and sleepiness letting the eyelids drop. And then something strange happened : instead of falling asleep my breath naturally became very short and rhythmic. After some time it calmed down into stillness and I found myself with eyes open in blissfully focused and energised clarity.
                        This clarity is not important in itself, just another state of mind, just like the dullness was. Who knows, maybe next time I'll fall asleep on my zafu. What I found important though, is to truly accept whatever state I'm finding myself in, merging with whatever condition presents itself, dropping all the resistance and attachment freely being in the flow of impermanence. A glimpse of Shikantaza. So much more sitting to sit.
                        Now I understand why Shikantaza is not a meditation that dualisticly uses various techniques and conscious manipulation of body energy (sorry Jundo, I'm a slow learner, you keep talking about it all the time).

                        Deep bows.
                        Gassho
                        Sat
                        What a beautiful description! Thank you. I learned a lot from reading - and then re-reading - your post.

                        Gassho, Jim
                        ST/LaH

                        Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk
                        No matter how much zazen we do, poor people do not become wealthy, and poverty does not become something easy to endure.
                        Kōshō Uchiyama, Opening the Hand of Thought

                        Comment

                        • Jakuden
                          Member
                          • Jun 2015
                          • 6141

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bion
                          From the Soto-shu official website: “Avoid sitting when you haven't had sufficient sleep or when you are physically exhausted. Before sitting, eat moderately and avoid alcohol. Wash your face and feet so that you feel refreshed.”

                          When you do zazen, find a quiet place where you can sit without disturbances. It should be neither too dark nor too bright, warm in the winter and cool in the summer. The sitting place should be neat and clean.


                          [emoji1374] SatToday
                          Haha this is one of the things that makes me realize I would never make it in a brick-and-mortar monastery for more than a week of Sesshin. After many years of fine-tuning this skin bag for peak efficiency, I know it would never adjust to the 7 hours a night of sleep a night alotted. I could do it by force when younger.

                          Thank you Inshin for this teaching

                          Gassho,
                          Jakuden
                          SatToday

                          Comment

                          • Bion
                            Treeleaf Unsui
                            • Aug 2020
                            • 4581

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jakuden
                            Haha this is one of the things that makes me realize I would never make it in a brick-and-mortar monastery for more than a week of Sesshin. After many years of fine-tuning this skin bag for peak efficiency, I know it would never adjust to the 7 hours a night of sleep a night alotted. I could do it by force when younger.

                            Thank you Inshin for this teaching

                            Gassho,
                            Jakuden
                            SatToday
                            I don’t get it.. so you sleep fewer hours or more? [emoji1]

                            [emoji1374] SatToday
                            "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

                            Comment

                            • Sekishi
                              Treeleaf Priest
                              • Apr 2013
                              • 5675

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Inshin
                              Bodhidharma ripped his eyelids off
                              Allegedly...

                              Originally posted by Inshin
                              If we try to create perfect conditions and look for perfect timing to sit Zazen we may not end up sitting much. I think it might be worth it to use some effort and practice in challenging conditions.
                              Yes, once we sit down, I believe we should sit steadfastly with current conditions. When sleepiness arises, sit with sleepiness. When agitation arises, sit with agitation.

                              But the important thing is simply to sit (ideally at least daily). So I think it is pragmatic advice to say that if one seems consistently sleepy at a particular time of day, try sitting at a different time of day. As householders, life and Mara will throw plenty of difficulties at us that will interfere with sitting, there is no need to create a new one!

                              But that is just my opinion.

                              Gassho,
                              Sekishi
                              #sat
                              Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

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