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"Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - HongzhiComment
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As in all things, I say "there is NO BAD ZAZEN!" ... even the bad Zazen!
Sleepy falling over Zazen is perfectly sleepy falling over Zazen! Nothing is lacking as sleepy falling over Zazen!
NONETHELESS ... we try not to be sleep or fall over as best we can! (A Koan. Zen folks always looks at these things two ways at once as one).
So, like folks have recommended, try to get sufficient sleep for Zazen (and for all of life), sit at a time of day when one is not so exhausted, drink some tea or other caffeinated beverage of choice (not Mountain Dew or those "Bulldog" things ... all things in moderation, even caffeine!
). However, Zen monks have had an intimate relationship with tea for 1500 years and more.
When sitting and a bit tired, try some deep breaths, or slightly elongating/stretching the neck and back. Some Zen monks put a rock on their head not to sleep, or a sharp needle in their thigh. I do not recommend that.
Some monks try to sit all night in Zazen, especially during intense retreats. Korean Rinzai monks, pushing for a breakthrough, often try to go a full 7 days with ZERO sleep ... with hallucinations that start about the third day. Also not recommended. (If they went a few more days, brain damage and death would kick in, but apparently 7 days is okay apart from the sometimes mental breakdowns which result). Some monks, trying to sit through the night, also tied ropes to themself and to a hook hanging from the ceiling so that they would not fall over, with a stick under the chin. Kinda cheating if you ask me! :-) The stick is called a Zenpan ...
About the Zenpan ...
Dogen's teacher in China used to hit people dozing during a Zazen retreat with a slipper. I have heard that, in monasteries, sleep deprivation is used just like it is used in marine boot camp or prisoner interrogations ... to break down resistance. I don't recommend that to you either.
I do not believe in sleep deprivation. Get a good night's sleep, not only for Zazen, but for health in general.
(Sorry to run long, and put everyone to sleep)
Gassho, J
STLahLast edited by Jundo; 03-01-2021, 01:03 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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It is exactly resistance and acceptance that I found really interesting. We're talking here about sleep, but it can be anything. It can be resistance to some unpleasant sound when we're sitting Zazen. We have a threshold in our minds of what we can endure and that is a limitation set by our craving for comfort. We are always trying to make the conditions of our lives as convenient and comfortable as possible. But most of the time it is not possible and we're facing dukkha. I think that without going to extremes that Jundo described, all of us in our daily seated and unseated practice can in a safe way push through resistance and experience what acceptance means. A silly example : I'm really enjoying "my moment" reading a book, suddenly my son is asking me for a snack disturbing me. His father could make it too, but he's asking me, and I notice resistance and clinging to my "me time". If I just agree to the situation, I will go make the snack hastily, slightly annoyed wishing to come back to my pleasant time. But if let go of the resistance and truly accept the situation I'll will carry the enjoyment of "me time" to the next activity, I'll make the snack lovingly and I'll find joy in making it.
I hope it makes sense.
Sorry again for going over 3 sentences.
Gassho
SatComment
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I realized when I was younger that I seemed to need more sleep that most people in order to function normally so the "8 hours" that's recommended is closer to 9 hours for me. 7 hours does not leave me refreshed at all, I feel sluggish and cranky all day. Less than that and it just gets worse. I felt vindicated when I learned more about what science has to say about sleep: We all need different amounts and while 8 is the average, there are definitely people who can do with less and people who need more, and that's just part of life.
Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH橋川
kyō (bridge) | sen (river)Comment
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Initially some years back when pain was like an ice pick into the brain, I wore a collar, and I sat lazily wishing I were some place else. I did not, or did drop into, in out of sitting, always siting somrewhere else. This I gave aways specifically artificiy, in part something else. There is always wish fulfillment. I fulfill daily now living into no adjustment. There is no pain at this moment. I just sit.
Gassho
sat/lah
Tai ShiPeaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive,
for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆Comment
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You actually used the words "caffeine" and "moderation" in the same sentence? (Oh I just did, too - d'oh!)
I am confused now...
But kidding aside, I once had a phase during which my Zazen practice was more like a "timed day dreaming" - it took me a few weeks even realizing this! The only way out there was making a short conscious resolution right before sitting, that I am about to let go of all thoughts now - it worked.
Gassho,
Daitetsu
sat2dayLast edited by Daitetsu; 03-07-2021, 05:24 PM.no thing needs to be addedComment
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The Soto-shu clearly don't have small children! Having small kids myself I have to sit when I can so sit with whatever is going on with me at the time, at first I found this frustrating as I wanted to be in optimal condition for zazen. But as I went on I realised zazen is precisely sitting with what is and sometimes what is, is tiredness, sometimes it's over stimulation. Either way I think sitting with however I am feeling at that time helps me carry my practice off the cushion more effectively.From the Soto-shu official website: “Avoid sitting when you haven't had sufficient sleep or when you are physically exhausted. Before sitting, eat moderately and avoid alcohol. Wash your face and feet so that you feel refreshed.”
[emoji1374] SatToday
Gassho,
Heiso.
StLahComment
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It’s one thing to sit with whatever spontaneously arises and a totally different thing to consistently make choices that make things difficult for ourselves. If there’s a pattern of an undesirable or harmful result, the wise thing is to look for the causes and maybe find solutions. 10 minutes of awake and alert zazen on a park bench during a break at work might actually be a better choice in certain situations than 30 minutes of head-bopping and dozing off on the zafu at 5 am or 11 at night. Balance is the key.
[emoji1374] SatToday"Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - HongzhiComment
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Thank you Inshin.
Gassho,
Kenkū.
sat today.Comment
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I have also thought about this. If (and I'm not at all sure if this is the case), Soto Zen falls into the non-dual Buddhist tradition, then Shikantaza would equate to the practice of 'Just Sitting'. We would be sitting in, what I would term, unconditioned awareness. In this state there is no right or wrong way to approach zazen, whatever arises, arises and we allow that. So if on some occasions the mind is sleepy, the mind is sleepy. As you say, let it, whatever 'it' is, be the way it is.
Respect to all.
Gassho
SatComment
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I no longer sleep during zazen nor Shikantaza but I fully relax into emptiness but I have been meditating 10 years and this October practicing with Treeleaf Zendo 7 years. With experience comes more acceptance. Be kind, and I have allowed myself to adjust to myself in so many ways.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProPeaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆Comment
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That’s enough out of me for one day. lol. Thank you Jundo for much.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProPeaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆Comment
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Congrats, every milestone is important, well done.
Gassho
David
SatComment
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