Proposed Change To The Treeleaf Eko Dedication

[Onka]

I fit somewhere under the trans* umbrella.
I think cisgendered women have fought long and hard to be recognised so in my opinion "male and female honoured ones as well as differently abled and those who don't fit the gender binary" works. Yes it is a mouthful but one of the criticisms some feminists and many women rightly have of the trans* community is that they feel that cisgendered women are once again being made invisible by statements saying "all" despite good intentions. It would rightly be akin to going back from "male and female honoured ones" to just "all honoured ones" like before. This is the challenge of trying to cater for folk with single issue "p" word.
An alternative that perhaps works best is "all honoured ones*" with a footnote saying that this includes cisgendered women, LGBTIQ+ folk and differently abled folk both mentally and physically"
Sorry for more than 3 sentences.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Eikyo]

Not part of the LGBTQ+ community, but think it is important that everyone feels they can contribute and be comfortable in being able to voice their opinions here. Open discussion aids understanding.

Gassho,
Phill
sat

Yes! 100% Phill. I want to add that at no point did I mean for anyone to feel that people who aren't LGBTQ+ can't contribute (not that I have any say over who does what anyways [emoji23]). However it is very helpful to know, as requested in both the original post by Jakuden and also later by Jundo, whether the wording is meeting the needs of the LGBTQ+ community.

We spotted that some people were being left out of the current binary gendered Treeleaf chant wording, so the purpose (as I understand it) is to collaborate and see if we can find new wording that meets the needs of all. And that means we need to make sure we are hearing the voices of those who are most affected by this change and haven't been heard in the past. This is why it is helpful if people can say if they are part of the LGBTQ+ community, or just allies. Either way is fine (or if you don't want to disclose is fine) but I don't see how this decision can be made, without involving this group (of which I am a part).

I'm gonna go lie down now [emoji1787][emoji1787]

Gassho,
Dee
Sat Today


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[Risho]

ok so I understand, we're going with "All honored, balding males.." ok great, sounds good. Keep up the great work. hahahah

Gassho,

Risho
-stlah

[Eikyo]

ok so I understand, we're going with "All honored, balding males.." ok great, sounds good. Keep up the great work. hahahah

Gassho,

Risho
-stlah

[emoji1787][emoji1787]
Thanks for your input Risho lol

Gassho

Dee
Sat

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[Soka]

ok so I understand, we're going with "All honored, balding males.." ok great, sounds good. Keep up the great work. hahahah

Dammit, I knew I should have posted an avatar photo where I was wearing a hat! And also "honoured" thank you very much,

Gassho,
Phill
sat

[Jakuden]

I have had a couple of PM's from folks who would rather not reply on the public forum.... let's remember that yes, it is 2020, but in some countries, people can still get the death penalty for being LGBTQ+! (or even a disobedient female in some cases), it is not by any means a given that every person in that community would want to be out--even though Treeleaf is a mostly pretty friendly place In the U.S., teachers at private schools are still being fired over their gender identity and sexual orientation, families are still disowning LGBTQ+ children, and the list goes on. We should be sensitive to this.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Risho]

That's a good point Jakuden! As I mentioned before, I'm a straight male. Funny - I liked girls since like first grade; I remember flirting with a girl in first grade math class by showing off my "pac man" belt - ah the 80's; simpler times. hahahah But that's not my fault - it's just who I am I guess. There is a plethora of differences among us. Why should I judge you for your preferences? What the hell do I know? Not much - I am who I am.

People like who they like - there are so many differences; it's a shame that we have to find ways to put ourselves above others - I guess that also relates to another precept of disparaging others that we will get into later. Juki, you are right, they are all one.

I was frustrated when this whole thing got going about changing our chant. But I wasn't frustrated because I don't think people should be treated equally. I get frustrated when we have to qualify people into categories. For example, I don't think President Obama was a great president because he was black; he was a great president who happened to be black.

Likewise, I don't think Onka is cool because of her sexual preference. I think she's just a really unique and cool cat.

I don't think our default characteristics are all that important. At the same time they are; they make us who we are.

But that is the emptiness side. Maybe we aren't all ready as a society yet because there are so many who are still shat upon due to these things. Maybe it's because of the way we mistreat each other, and have mistreated each other in the past, that we still have to highlight differences so that future generations see that we are all different but we share the same needs of being loved and valued, and that those differences make us stronger.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Jundo]

I have had a couple of PM's from folks who would rather not reply on the public forum.... let's remember that yes, it is 2020, but in some countries, people can still get the death penalty for being LGBTQ+! (or even a disobedient female in some cases), it is not by any means a given that every person in that community would want to be out--even though Treeleaf is a mostly pretty friendly place In the U.S., teachers at private schools are still being fired over their gender identity and sexual orientation, families are still disowning LGBTQ+ children, and the list goes on. We should be sensitive to this.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Yes, yes, I hope that was implied by my message.

Perhaps it would be helpful if folks who are offering an opinion, but do so while --not-- considering themself part of the LGBTQ+ community, would say so. Folks can also contact Jakuden or Kokuu by PM to offer a private opinion.

Maybe we can make an anonymous poll once we have the choices narrowed down?

Gassho, Jundo

[Kokuu]

I was frustrated when this whole thing got going about changing our chant. But I wasn't frustrated because I don't think people should be treated equally. I get frustrated when we have to qualify people into categories. For example, I don't think President Obama was a great president because he was black; he was a great president who happened to be black.

Likewise, I don't think Onka is cool because of her sexual preference. I think she's just a really unique and cool cat.

I don't think our default characteristics are all that important. At the same time they are; they make us who we are.

But that is the emptiness side. Maybe we aren't all ready as a society yet because there are so many who are still shat upon due to these things. Maybe it's because of the way we mistreat each other, and have mistreated each other in the past, that we still have to highlight differences so that future generations see that we are all different but we share the same needs of being loved and valued, and that those differences make us stronger.

Nicely said, Risho. It is frustrating that we still make a big deal over the colour of someone's skin, who they love or what religion they follow. It would be lovely to think of a time when those things just didn't matter but we know how humans are.

I hope the pacman belt flirting worked!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Inshin]

I have had a couple of PM's from folks who would rather not reply on the public forum.... let's remember that yes, it is 2020, but in some countries, people can still get the death penalty for being LGBTQ+! (or even a disobedient female in some cases), it is not by any means a given that every person in that community would want to be out--even though Treeleaf is a mostly pretty friendly place In the U.S., teachers at private schools are still being fired over their gender identity and sexual orientation, families are still disowning LGBTQ+ children, and the list goes on. We should be sensitive to this.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

The fight of LGBTQ+ goes hand in hand with the fight for women's rights and it is a fight for the world where those differences will not matter and we won't need anymore to categorize people.
I'm straight but when it comes to gender it's more fluid.
Is it even possible to have a male mind perfectly happy and content within female body?
I remember as a small child I wanted to be a boy, and grew up a tomboy, having mostly male friends, braking bones, windows, and being a troublemaker.
I appreciate my female form and I'm blessed to discover its power to create and give life, hower I've always struggled to confirm with the image of what it means to be a woman.
I remember I went once to a Muslim wedding do with my husband. Staying close to him I found myself in the room full of chatting men, and didn't even noticed anything unusual about it. Feeling comfortable I tried to participate in a conversation, when suddenly I was gently asked out and reminded to join women's room. I've never felt so much out of the place and so bored!
My proposition of "all honoured ones" comes from the place of no division. I can't even lable myself, why would I lable others?
But I understand that the world is not yet at the place where differences don't matter and in the fight for inclusiveness it may be important to use labels.

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.
Gassho
Sat

[Seishin]

From someone outside of the LGBTQ+ community, which some would refer to as "straight" (never really got that Americanism) I would be happy with "all honoured ones" and "all Treeleaf ancestors". Inclusive of all beings in the Universe...............planning for the future, after this year who knows what is on the (event) horizon.

sat and contemplated

[Kokuu]

I'm straight but when it comes to gender it's more fluid.
Is it even possible to have a male mind perfectly happy and content within female body?

I feel the same way the other way around, Ania, although wonder whether the whole idea that women and men should be a certain way is largely outmoded. Is a woman boxer any less female? A stay-at-home dad less masculine?

In any case, I feel thankful that academic and spiritual communities I have been part of do not expect people with male bodies to like cars, sport and aggression and can instead prefer cooking, sewing and gardening.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jinyo]

I think 'all honoured ones including those whose names have been forgotten or left unsaid' is inclusive of all and clear and direct.

and Dee's suggestion of 'Ancestors from marginalised communities' is really good and in line with contemporary expression. As a disabled person I really can't warm to 'of different' or 'all natures'.

Personally I don't experience differences I might have - either by free choice (chosen orientation) or circumstances (physical illness,etc) in a way that is expressed by the term 'nature'. The fact that one can be marginalised due to perceived/or actual difference is important though and needs to be recognised - but hopefully without a lineage chart/ or ceremony becoming too complicated or wordy.

IMHO Reverence and respect for all needs to be conveyed in a simple and direct manner.


Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

Just musing after writing this and occurred to me that we speak of our 'original nature' - 'original face' and that feels absolutely right so maybe I don't warm to term 'different natures' because it connects to the conventional world where we cut things up/discriminate etc.

[zenphxaz]

I am part of the LGBTQ+ community.

I think that “all honored ones” is a great phrase, and maybe remembering those whose names were “forgotten or left unsaid” might be helpful as well.

In a recent management seminar at work on inclusion I heard: “if you are not intentionally including you may be unintentionally excluding”. This was helpful for me.

SatToday,

Ian

[Hoseki]

Proposed Change To The Treeleaf Eko Dedication

Hi folks,


I’m not sure I’m saying anything that hasn’t been said but here’s Hoseki’s hot take.

I think “all honoured ones” works because it includes everyone like the way the cosmos kind of includes everything and in this way it can reflect the kind of wholeness of the cosmos. It can be paired with the different lineage charts to show the diversity of the wholeness. That way, when paired they follow the many and the whole vibe that runs thought Zen practice.

Just a thought or two.

Gassho,


Hoseki
Sattoday

Edit: I forgot to mention that I would consider myself to be more or less cis and probably a man.

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