Proposed Change To The Treeleaf Eko Dedication

[Jakuden]

JUNDO NOTE: If just joining this discussion, please see latest post here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post276080

Hi all,

The discussion about the Fifth Precept, on not misusing sexuality, has brought up the issue of gender in our liturgy.

Jundo says:
As to the subject of our "male and female honored ones," it was quite revolutionary just 10 years ago when the "Women Ancestors" research and Lineage was created in Zen circles for the first time, and we added that. Maybe it is time to expand more in our recognition? Shall we move to something like " ... and to male and female honored ones, all-gendered honored ones, whose names have been forgotten and left unsaid?" Or, to be even more inclusive ... "male and female honored one, all-natured honored ones ... "?

I know we have members who identify in many lovely flavors, so please advise.

How do people feel, especially those of you who are not of traditionally male/female gender, about the wording of the dedication? Does "all-natured" seem appropriate, would "honored ones of all genders" or just "all honored ones" be better today? Does anyone have other suggestions?

Thanks in advance for your input, everyone .Anyone who doesn’t wish to post publicly feel free to PM Kokuu or myself.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Choboku]

I think that all honored ones is a good option. It is all inclusive, without stepping on the toes of anyone that may feel differently.

Your milage may vary though. Just my 2 cents. If I am out of line, please let me know so I can improve my understanding.

Sat today
Adam


Edit: I like all-natured as well.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

[Eikyo]

I think that all honored ones is a good option. It is all inclusive, without stepping on the toes of anyone that may feel differently.

Your milage may vary though. Just my 2 cents. If I am out of line, please let me know so I can improve my understanding.

Sat today
Adam


Edit: I like all-natured as well.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

Hi Adam,

I'm curious what you mean about stepping on the toes of others who feel differently?

How could acknowledging other genders step on anyones toes? Genuine question.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat Today

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[Choboku]

Hi Adam,

I'm curious what you mean about stepping on the toes of others who feel differently?

How could acknowledging other genders step on anyones toes? Genuine question.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat Today

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

There are people that I've encountered that feel very strongly that there are only two genders. While I have no problem calling them out in my real life, I think that it is not the place of a buddhist ceremony to make people upset. Thats what I'm getting at.

Sat today,
Adam

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[Jakuden]

There are people that I've encountered that feel very strongly that there are only two genders. While I have no problem calling them out in my real life, I think that it is not the place of a buddhist ceremony to make people upset. Thats what I'm getting at.

Sat today,
Adam

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

We are not worried about upsetting those who are overly attached to the status quo. If that were the case, Treeleaf wouldn't exist in the first place The idea is to reach out to those who are not defined by the current wording, the way we have done here for women, the disabled, etc. and make sure they are not inadvertently excluded.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Shonin Risa Bear]

Be it noted that I am probably "all of the above" and feel that "all honored ones" works for me. Long tortured sentences in efforts to be inclusive leave me feeling a bit singled out (whether intended or otherwise). I'm pleased to find myself among all here who concentrate so wholeheartedly on bodhisattva action just as it arises. _()_

gassho
shonin sat and some lah today

[Choboku]

We are not worried about upsetting those who are overly attached to the status quo. If that were the case, Treeleaf wouldn't exist in the first place The idea is to reach out to those who are not defined by the current wording, the way we have done here for women, the disabled, etc. and make sure they are not inadvertently excluded.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Makes perfect sense. I'm glad this is the approach.

Sat today,
Adam

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

[Jakuden]

Funny, the addition of "male and female honored ones" was added to expand inclusivity, which it did, but now it may be time to drop it for inclusiveness' sake. Kind of the way we are struggling to drop descriptions of people with ethnic and racial adjectives now.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[gaurdianaq]

All honored ones seems good, it's all inclusive and it gets to the point without being wordy.

EDIT: Not LGBTQ+ (unless being somewhere on the asexual spectrum counts)


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jakuden]

Also, if anyone has an opinion but does not want to post it on this thread, please message Kokuu or myself directly. We will absolutely not reveal your identity to anyone else, but we are still interested in what you have to say! We realize that not everyone may want to discuss this on the open forum.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

May I ask for clarification in people's opinions, just so we can all develop a clear understanding of everyone's feelings?

If there were a switch just to "all honored ones," would that mean just to drop the mention of "male and female" (in bold) and keep the rest? The actual line in our Ceremony dedications is now ...

... we dedicate our sincere efforts to:
•Shakyamuni Buddha Honored One; the Historical Buddha and Teacher …
and to those ancestral teachers:
Eihei Dogen Honored One
Soji Keizan Honored One,
All successive Honored Ones up until
Zuigaku Rempo Honored One and
Gudo Wafu Honored One
and to all other Honored Ones throughout history, Male and Female Honored Ones, whose names have been forgotten or left unsaid.

Also, should we keep our special Recitations of the Women Ancestors and the Recitation of the Differently Abled Ancestors during our Rohatsu Retreat, also drop them, or add to them in some way? You can see Kokuu recite for the Differently Abled Ancestors here, and there is a like Ceremony for "Women Ancestors" at a different time ...

Explanation of the Differently-Abled Ancestors Ceremony here:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16649-First-Recital-of-the-LINEAGE-of-DIFFERENTLY-ABLED-ANCESTORS&p=234744&viewfull=1#post234744

Finally, we present at Jukai this special Lineage Chart for the Women and Differently Abled Ancestors. Do we need to stop, or change the wording, add to it in some way?

Treeleaf Blood Lineage Chart of the Women RED LINE-JPG.jpg

All guidance is welcome!!!!

Gassho, J

STlah

[Kyōsen]

Disclaimer: I consider myself to be part of the LGBTQ+ community.

I like "all honored ones" because of its simple universal inclusion. It includes those within, straddling, and outside of the gender binary, it doesn't rely on clunky terminology or awkward phrasing, it's pretty innocuous really. Some of us may go through periods in our lives where we question and examine our gender identity and during that process we may go from idea to idea, trying things out and seeing how they sit. "All honored ones" captures all of that in a simple, elegant way, so no matter where someone is in their journey they can feel naturally included.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Zenkon]

Perhaps, leaving the phrase as "all honored ones" is most inclusive and keeps the focus on "honored" and not on what is meant by "ones". Once you attempt to explain who is included, you invariably risk inadvertently excluding someone.

Gassho

Dick
Sattoday

[Amelia]

I also like, "all honored ones".

Gassho
Sat, lah

[Inshin]

For some reason "male and female ones" was sticking out for me. I think "all honoured ones" is inclusive and flows better.
As for Rohatsu and Jukai the ceremony mentions particular names so it is good to keep them, maybe without dividing it to categories "female" and "differently abled". I understand the intention behind mentioning the particular disability of the Ancestors, to show inclusivity and that the Path is available to everyone, however I feel that to be fully inclusive we shouldn't focus on that aspect. Maybe I have a wrong view, but if I was disabled I wouldn't want others to praise me for my "achievements" despite the disabilities, as if it was something special. I know it may be motivational if disabled people achieve more than the able ones, but for me it's a hidden pity :"look - if a disabled person managed to succeed then you're just lazy and lacking motivation".
Please correct me if I see this wrongly.
Gassho
Sat