Zazen with closed eyes?

[Jundo]

Sitting with eyes half opened made them very watery, tears would fall down my cheeks so in my discouragement I did more reaserch and I came across short videos by Olivier Wang-Genh were he recommends having eyes 1/3 opened, just allowing for the light to enter but not being distracted by forms - that seems to work fine for me, and I close my eyes just at the very beginning of zazen to settle down more easily.
I also noticed that sitting and allowing outside in, "helps" for Samadhi / flow concentration to spill into activity, whereas it takes a bit of time to emerge from closed eyes meditation back to reality.
I wasn't sure how relevant it was for Zazen but now after reading your replies I understand that it has a significance - for the whole of life to gradually become Shikantanza and not only time on the zafu.

Thank you.

Gassho
Sat

Yes, it sounds like you must be doing something unnatural, e.g., forgetting to blink, staring too fixedly, holding them too much open. There should be absolutely nothing different about sitting Zazen for 30 minutes than driving a car for 30 minutes, having tea with a friend for 30 minutes or looking at a computer screen for 30 minutes (and I assume you don't drive a car with your eyes closed! ). Eyes fully open is acceptable, but we usually sit about 1/3 or half open, and again, it should be natural ... normal blinking ... normal degree of eye movement ... normal looking ... so I do not see what could cause watering and tears.

In Shikantaza, by the way, we are not seeking "Samadhi/flow concentration," so I am not sure what you mean by that. Are you trying for that? It is a bit different from "just sitting" maybe.

Sorry, the words ran a bit long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Kokuu]

I've never been able to do this. My eyes are either open or shut, never in between. But due to a health issue the past couple years, I just do what i can now.

Meian

Doing what you can is totally fine. We are not here to try and force people to do something which goes against their health.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

Meian

Doing what you can is totally fine. We are not here to try and force people to do something which goes against their health.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yes.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

In Shikantaza, by the way, we are not seeking "Samadhi/flow concentration," so I am not sure what you mean by that. Are you trying for that? It is a bit different from "just sitting" maybe.

Sorry, the words ran a bit long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Not sure, maybe I used wrong words, mindfulness being more appropriate (or perhaps mindlessness?) I stopped striving for anything in Shikantaza, just letting everything be as it is, and sometimes when the breath and thoughts settle there is just a flow of whatever is arrising/disappearing without me engaging with it/ getting pulled by a thought or sensation. It continues beyond the zafu in a way that walking is just walking, putting a kettle on is just that, washing a cup is just that until a thought or something else has enough power to pull me in and the blender switches back on/I get lost in planning, reflecting on something, etc. It just happens and is definitely not any special, "otherworldly" state, rather an ordinary mind but present.
Sorry for extra sentence and lack of "proper" words.
Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

Not sure, maybe I used wrong words, mindfulness being more appropriate (or perhaps mindlessness?) I stopped striving for anything in Shikantaza, just letting everything be as it is, and sometimes when the breath and thoughts settle there is just a flow of whatever is arrising/disappearing without me engaging with it/ getting pulled by a thought or sensation. It continues beyond the zafu in a way that walking is just walking, putting a kettle on is just that, washing a cup is just that until a thought or something else has enough power to pull me in and the blender switches back on/I get lost in planning, reflecting on something, etc. It just happens and is definitely not any special, "otherworldly" state, rather an ordinary mind but present.
Sorry for extra sentence and lack of "proper" words.
Gassho
Sat

That sounds very balanced and wise. Lovely.

In our practice, we know such "in the flow" states of ease, but don't cling to them or think the goal is to be so 24/7/365. Sometimes we are "in the flow," sometimes life's river overflows and we find ourselves carried away up to our necks and ... that's okay too.

Sometimes "walking is just walking, putting a kettle on is just that, washing a cup is just that" ... and sometimes we walk right into a table and stub our toe yelling an 4 letter word, the kettles boils over, we drop the cup into 100 pieces ... and that's life too, just fine. We try to avoid the excesses of desire, anger, frustration, etc. ... but don't expect to be perfect either.

(Sorry, imperfectly ran a bit long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Meian]

Meian

Doing what you can is totally fine. We are not here to try and force people to do something which goes against their health.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yes, my apologies, I did not intend to imply otherwise. Only meant to share from my personal experience. Thank you for clarifying, very sorry for any misunderstandings.

Gassho2, meian st lh

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[Inshin]

That sounds very balanced and wise. Lovely.

In our practice, we know such "in the flow" states of ease, but don't cling to them or think the goal is to be so 24/7/365. Sometimes we are "in the flow," sometimes life's river overflows and we find ourselves carried away up to our necks and ... that's okay too.

Sometimes "walking is just walking, putting a kettle on is just that, washing a cup is just that" ... and sometimes we walk right into a table and stub our toe yelling an 4 letter word, the kettles boils over, we drop the cup into 100 pieces ... and that's life too, just fine. We try to avoid the excesses of desire, anger, frustration, etc. ... but don't expect to be perfect either.

(Sorry, imperfectly ran a bit long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

I know that Enlightenment is possible and before encountering Zen, I thought that I need to put all my effort into practice because I don't know when I will die. Inspired by Pema Chodron "No time to loose" I felt the sense of urgency, because I had such a wonderful life so far, but I ve been useless since I haven't done anything truly good, and the world we live in needs transformation. Zen and sitting Shikantaza taught me that this urgency is what is right in front of me, and not my ideas of how "saving the world" should be. That sort of mindfulness helped me to change the way I relate to situations and people and in my mum's case I encouraged her to quit smoking, which she did, after 50 years of inhaling about 40 cigarettes a day. Whereas previously if I went on a rant about it she would suggest to burry her after death with a pack of cigarettes so that she has something to do in hell. Just sitting in "good for nothing" zazen, nothing to achieve nothing to expect, yet so many possibilities present.

Sorry, felt the need to express more than 3 sentences. (I don't know anyone who's interested in Buddhism, so you folks are the ones)
Gassho
Sat

[Amelia]

I remember a video Taigu made long ago about form while sitting, and I remember him saying something like, "Just let your eyes be around." I think he was emphasizing that your eyes should be naturally and gently open, without putting too much effort or strain into where you are looking, or at what degree, or how open the lids are. This really helped me at that point in time because I was far to conscious of my eyes.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

I remember a video Taigu made long ago about form while sitting, and I remember him saying something like, "Just let your eyes be around." I think he was emphasizing that your eyes should be naturally and gently open, without putting too much effort or strain into where you are looking, or at what degree, or how open the lids are. This really helped me at that point in time because I was far to conscious of my eyes.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

Eyes are a funny business. When I started sitting facing the wall in my home zendo, I “saw” the mouth of a Buddha in the pattern of the painting on it. It’s been years and I can find that Buddha mouth in a second when I sit in that spot. [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Doshin]

I use to make great effort to keep my eyes open. Switched to an earlier sitting and it’s been much easier to do. My attempt at Zen humor though it’s true

Doshin
St

[Amelia]

Eyes are a funny business. When I started sitting facing the wall in my home zendo, I “saw” the mouth of a Buddha in the pattern of the painting on it. It’s been years and I can find that Buddha mouth in a second when I sit in that spot. [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

I know what you mean, and I experience this too; I think most people do, but I'm not sure. I like to change up the places and postures in which I sit to avoid looking for these regular shapes and patterns, or hearing distracting sounds-- I like to be ready to sit anywhere. Other times, I just sit with the weird visions and let them be, even if I can't seem to stop finding them.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

I know what you mean, and I experience this too; I think most people do, but I'm not sure. I like to change up the places and postures in which I sit to avoid looking for these regular shapes and patterns, or hearing distracting sounds-- I like to be ready to sit anywhere. Other times, I just sit with the weird visions and let them be, even if I can't seem to stop finding them.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

I do the en opposite and I sit knowing my eyes could find the shape but though interested, I can simply choose not to. The same way I sit through the most terrible itches at time and I can simply choose to let the itch be even though I could scratch it. Phenomena [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jundo]

I know that Enlightenment is possible and before encountering Zen, I thought that I need to put all my effort into practice because I don't know when I will die. Inspired by Pema Chodron "No time to loose" I felt the sense of urgency, because I had such a wonderful life so far, but I ve been useless since I haven't done anything truly good, and the world we live in needs transformation. Zen and sitting Shikantaza taught me that this urgency is what is right in front of me, and not my ideas of how "saving the world" should be.

Yes. Lovely story about your mum and smoking.

As you have probably figured out by now, in Soto Zen, we tend not to see "Enlightenment" as something one "gets before we die," but rather an ongoing lived embodiment. Yes, we have a timeless moment or moments of deep insight into the "Absolute," but that is only one aspect we say. It is not a "get it once, and one is done" thing. Maybe more vital is how we live in each act, word and thought during life. Thus, "Enlightenment" actually is a lot like quitting smoking: We may realizing the "Great Non-Smoking Buddha" that sweeps in all reality ... but here on earth, day by day, it is just moment by moment of either choosing to not take a cigarette or falling off the wagon and lighting up a Marlboro.

You know the old joke about smoking, that "Quitting is easy, I have done it 1000 time?"

Well, "Enlightenment is easy, I have done it 10,000 times! ".

Sorry, long winded here.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

Yes. Lovely story about your mum and smoking.

As you have probably figured out by now, in Soto Zen, we tend not to see "Enlightenment" as something one "gets before we die," but rather an ongoing lived embodiment. Yes, we have a timeless moment or moments of deep insight into the "Absolute," but that is only one aspect we say. It is not a "get it once, and one is done" thing. Maybe more vital is how we live in each act, word and thought during life. Thus, "Enlightenment" actually is a lot like quitting smoking: We may realizing the "Great Non-Smoking Buddha" that sweeps in all reality ... but here on earth, day by day, it is just moment by moment of either choosing to not take a cigarette or falling off the wagon and lighting up a Marlboro.

You know the old joke about smoking, that "Quitting is easy, I have done it 1000 time?"

Well, "Enlightenment is easy, I have done it 10,000 times! ".

Sorry, long winded here.

Gassho, J

STLah

That is a most helpful example Jundo, thank you. I must admit that I have been obsessed with the idea of transcending suffering permanently for some years now. But the more I search for it, the more I suffer. When I sit Shikantaza and I just let it all be as it is, even the discomfort, then peace arises. And if it doesn't, I also feel at peace with whatever comes. It might not be enlightenment, but it is revolutionary to the way I see practice and how I live life. What a treasure.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Horin]

That is a most helpful example Jundo, thank you. I must admit that I have been obsessed with the idea of transcending suffering permanently for some years now. But the more I search for it, the more I suffer. When I sit Shikantaza and I just let it all be as it is, even the discomfort, then peace arises. And if it doesn't, I also feel at peace with whatever comes. It might not be enlightenment, but it is revolutionary to the way I see practice and how I live life. What a treasure.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Very nice. I think that the term enlightenment is something that may brings up all kinds of strange ideas. At least it did for me. So I thought about some state that is archived through practice and will las forever.. like a state of total clarity and bliss for the rest of my life that will liberate me from all dukkha. But I think more adequate may be the term awakening... Awakening to what? I think it's just to awaken to the reality just as it is, and look through the coloring of our delusional judgements, ideas, opinions, likes and dislikes...to awaken from the poisons of mind for this single moment. And we may fall into the old views the next moment, into Samsara.. I think that is what Dogen taught with practice-awakening or practice-realization. We can only now wake up from delusion,... And we can also fall back into Samsara. And so we keep practicing awakening on and off the Zafu and may be able to disentangle more and more from the habitual judgements, thinking, opinions, ideas, shoulds, and shouldn'ts... also in the daily life and make this way our life beyond the formal practice to some kind of practice.

At least my idea on that.

Sorry for violating the three sentence rule so badly

Gassho,

Horin

Stlah

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