(Non)Split Thread: Teachers & Students in the Modern, Western Sangha

[Hoseki]

I think that's a good way of looking at things and one that Jundo has stressed from time to time. At the end of the day we are all on a journey and though there may be common sign posts and stopping off places I think our personal experiences may differ - despite a commonality.

I experience Tree Leaf as a place of communal knowledge/sharing and a wonderful resource but the whole impetus of Zen (and possibly Buddhism in general) is that we must learn to trust in our own path and put 'the raft' down at some point. I'm not sure it helps - or is wise - to assume that others are somehow further along the path due to a belief in hierarchy. To my mind the priesthood is about service - which is admirable and I do feel gratitude for the commitment that involves - but in terms of sharing/learning or simply being touched (at times in quite a profound way) that often comes from a perspective a 'beginner' has shared ( we are all fundamentally beginners anyway- yes?).

There is instruction to be given and help to be given with it and then there is personal experience and a lived life. Jundo patiently repeats the instruction - for so many years now because that is his role freely given - and books to be read - hundreds of them if we're so inclined - but the really hard/interesting part of the journey is how do we fare with all of this in our everyday lives ? I think that's the part that keeps me coming back here - not for expertise or knowledge (helpful though that may be) - but the sheer human aspect of trying to lead a better life - be a better/ or at least more insightful person in my dealings with others.

Sorry this is a bit of a long ramble but it set me wondering what the basis/ and structure of our community is about and hierarchical didn't quite seem to fit.

Thank you Onka for stimulating the question.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat Today

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

[Risho]

This reminds me of the Zen koan: the person of no rank. In our day to day, we are all involved in hierarchies - sometimes much to our chagrin. I agree that sometimes they are abused; however, in a good hierarchy, it's based on competence and care.

I manage a team of people at work; you'd think that it's all about the team doing the work while I sit back and sip on margaritas, but it's the opposite, and that's how I see it here. Traditionally, you think of a business organization structure as a pyramid with the leader on the top and workers on the bottom. That is naive, and unhealthy. It is actually the opposite; the leader is on the bottom supporting their team. The most important role of a leader is taking care of their people. Their ego must be subdued - you take all the blame and you give away all the credit. It's a family and you don't kick people when they are down, you try to be optimistic and lift people up so they can be their best selves. It's being a Tenzo, a caretaker. You do the crap that no one else wants to do sometimes to keep things going.

In any case, I see that as the role of the priests here. They do all the stuff to keep this place running. At the same time we are practicing together and they are not above or below.

But because they are willing to do the things that keep this place going, the administrative stuff, all of it, ango, book clubs, posting massive amounts of teaching, doing the research behind Dogen, etc. It's about taking care of the dharma, preserving the dharma for the next generation.

So I see that is why they are at the top of the topless (ok that didn't come out right) hierarchy from one perspective. At the other time, they are on the bottom, supporting and serving and at another, they are at our side - friends on the way.

There is a saying: "Never above, never below, always beside". You know the good leaders -they are the ones who want to work with you, really care about you. It's the same here.

Gassho

Risho
-apologies for going over. I normally sit later in the day and will be doing so but don't want to put "sat" as it would be disingenuous

[gaurdianaq]

This reminds me of the Zen koan: the person of no rank. In our day to day, we are all involved in hierarchies - sometimes much to our chagrin. I agree that sometimes they are abused; however, in a good hierarchy, it's based on competence and care.

I manage a team of people at work; you'd think that it's all about the team doing the work while I sit back and sip on margaritas, but it's the opposite, and that's how I see it here. Traditionally, you think of a business organization structure as a pyramid with the leader on the top and workers on the bottom. That is naive, and unhealthy. It is actually the opposite; the leader is on the bottom supporting their team. The most important role of a leader is taking care of their people. Their ego must be subdued - you take all the blame and you give away all the credit. It's a family and you don't kick people when they are down, you try to be optimistic and lift people up so they can be their best selves. It's being a Tenzo, a caretaker. You do the crap that no one else wants to do sometimes to keep things going.

Gassho

Risho
-apologies for going over. I normally sit later in the day and will be doing so but don't want to put "sat" as it would be disingenuous

That's definitely how it SHOULD be, unfortunately though in many case that's not what the reality ends up being. Especially with these big international corporations. The senior leadership are often very disconnected from the workers.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Kokuu]

Hi all

Whereas I don't see Treeleaf as necessarily being a hierarchy, I think that there is a general principle to be upheld as part of Zen training of respecting the teacher, allowing them to set the rules and see they are followed, and allowing them to have the last word, even on the odd occasion when they may not be right!

This is not so much because Jundo is superior to us, but rather that it is part of letting go the need to be right and have control at all times. As Jundo often says, the Japanese have a cultural tendency to defer to authority, whereas many in the west have been brought up to challenge it. Neither of these things is bad but it is probably true that Japanese people might benefit from asserting themselves a little more and westerners from a little more humility. This is not a military boot camp, and the rules are not exactly onerous, so I feel it is good practice to follow them and to give respect to Jundo for his role both as teacher and founder.

I do not believe it is necessary to see Jundo as your teacher as a member of Treeleaf (it took me quite some time to see him that way) but many probably do and in that case there is definitely a greater degree of respect due, again as part of the training process rather than because Jundo himself requires it.

As far as the unsui and priests go, I don't personally think we are on a different level to anyone else. Some members have been here longer than us, and some are more experienced in practice and knowledge. I guess our role is more functional in terms of helping with organisation and planning, giving basic advice and making sure the sangha runs smoothly by occasionally pointing out the rules.

Anyway, apologies for too many words.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

This reminds me of the Zen koan: the person of no rank. In our day to day, we are all involved in hierarchies - sometimes much to our chagrin. I agree that sometimes they are abused; however, in a good hierarchy, it's based on competence and care.

My role here is neither top nor bottom nor in between, but simply to help point the way for folks to know the shining flowing wholeness sometimes known as "enlightenment" ... the "person of no rank" coming in and out of one's face, free of all separate characteristics in a world of separate characteristics. (See discussion here):

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18159-%28Non%29Split-Topic-Enlightenment-s-Real-%28Batchelor-Foolish%29-but-forget-Enlightenment

Often I fail miserably, sometimes it works out ... and while the students must do their own heavy lifting, sit their own sitting and find the way for themselves with any teacher just pointing off in the right way (like Master Linji/Rinzai, a hard old general who took no gruff, and came up with that "person of no rank" thing) ...

Book of Serenity Koan #38: Linji's True Person

Case
Linji addressed the assembly, saying, "There is a true person of no rank. He is always leaving and entering the gates of your face. You beginners who have not witnessed him: Look! Look!"
Thereupon a monk asked, "How about this true person of no rank?"
Linji got down from the seat and grabbed him.
The monk hesitated, and Linji pushed him away, saying, "This true person of no rank; what a shit-stick he is!"

... the buck stops here.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - I will be sitting for Evan's friend with cancer.

[Doshin]

Hi all

Whereas I don't see Treeleaf as necessarily being a hierarchy, I think that there is a general principle to be upheld as part of Zen training of respecting the teacher, allowing them to set the rules and see they are followed, and allowing them to have the last word, even on the odd occasion when they may not be right!

This is not so much because Jundo is superior to us, but rather that it is part of letting go the need to be right and have control at all times. As Jundo often says, the Japanese have a cultural tendency to defer to authority, whereas many in the west have been brought up to challenge it. Neither of these things is bad but it is probably true that Japanese people might benefit from asserting themselves a little more and westerners from a little more humility. This is not a military boot camp, and the rules are not exactly onerous, so I feel it is good practice to follow them and to give respect to Jundo for his role both as teacher and founder.

I do not believe it is necessary to see Jundo as your teacher as a member of Treeleaf (it took me quite some time to see him that way) but many probably do and in that case there is definitely a greater degree of respect due, again as part of the training process rather than because Jundo himself requires it.

As far as the unsui and priests go, I don't personally think we are on a different level to anyone else. Some members have been here longer than us, and some are more experienced in practice and knowledge. I guess our role is more functional in terms of helping with organisation and planning, giving basic advice and making sure the sangha runs smoothly by occasionally pointing out the rules.

Anyway, apologies for too many words.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

With respect to my Teacher and great appreciation to the unsuis and other priests.

Doshin
St