(Non)Split Thread: Teachers & Students in the Modern, Western Sangha

[Doshin]

For smiles, I just deleted a post I spent almost an hour writing, editing, perfecting and then pondering.It felt good and right with what I said. It was very cathartic, but I deleted it since Jakuden, Kokuu, Meitou and Jinyo already said it, albeit differently, but the same in essence. Thank you

The point of all my words was that this is not Face Book, I take Refuge in the Sangha, and I bow to our teacher.


Be Safe and Stay Well.

Doshin
St

PS.Darn I just realized I went over my three so apologies

[Risho]

The point of all my words was that this is not Face Book, I take Refuge in the Sangha, and I bow to our teacher.

Right on! Sometimes it’s easy for me to get lackadaisical on this; very good points everyone!

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I sometimes ask my Japanese medical doctors and dentists what's the big difference between their Japanese and western patients. The answer is typically:

(1) the westerners ask a lot more questions and want explanations, while the Japanese generally do not and just do what the doctor says,
(2) the westerners often come with things they found on the internet, telling the doctor what the diagnosis is and what he should prescribe, and argue when the doctor disagrees, while the Japanese generally do not,
(3) the westerners complain and get in a huff quickly even in the face of good and sound treatments, while the Japanese generally do not, and last but not least,
(4) the Japanese generally take a bit of physical discomfort without complaint, while westerners scream at the mere sight of a needle!

I think it is also all generally true about what I witness in Japanese and western (particularly American, but other western cultures too?) Zen Sangha.

And it is a good thing ... in moderation ... to have questioning, challenging, explanation, new information. It makes the doctor better too. We try to keep that balance around here, and I think that the Japanese way can be rather deadening and closed minded in extreme, while the western way can turn into "everybody for themself, patients running the hospital" chaos at the other extreme. So, Middle Way!

In the old days, the Abbot of the Zen Monastery was literally "Buddha incarnate," chairman of the board, the last word, slapping and insulting when called for as in many of the old stories (Ah, those were the days! ... I kid, I kid), and while it is possible to get the "leader" to listen in Japan, it must be done delicately (thus those wonderful ultra humble Japanese grammar forms such as, "Honorable Roshi, I am so sorry to mention this, and it is so rude, please don't mind me and it is a lovely teaching but ... thank you for everything you do ... but I think you have a mustard stain on your cheek ... just maybe, pardon my clumsy rudeness." )

Basically, there is no perfect Karate teacher, or cooking or Spanish language teacher, and any teacher should always be willing to learn ... but the students should not come into the Karate Dojo or school and take over the class either. Middle way. Frankly, if somebody does not like the style of Karate, soup making or conjugating vowels here ... try the school or Dojo down the street. As part of my job description, I try to discuss, answer questions, debate a bit (until it becomes too much), explain. I have to be the main or last word on most things here, but people are heard, questions are addressed, hopefully reasons are explained and ... ultimately ... people only need to stay if they benefit.

By the way, on the two comments that Sam posted ...

But you are wrong, and I showed you such quotes.

You make assertions, but you don't offer much evidence or facts or supporting texts on your side beside your bare assertions. Put up or shut up ... and sit!

... the first one does show that I am so imperfect. It was in response to my misreading Andrew's comment ("It also seems odd that records illustrating moments of awakening don't usually connect those moments with Zazen... hence the request for solid quotations and it looks at first glance like so far there are a few.") which I read as "... so far there are few" rather than "... so far there are a few." I read it as more of an outright rejection of the examples I had posted. I was wrong to say "But you are wrong ... "

But the other quote .... Put up or shut up ... and sit! ... Hell no, basic Zen 101 when discussion gets to a certain point ... as dear Brad says: SIT DOWN and SHUT UP!

(Sorry for not shutting up and running a bit long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - Oh, I don't think we need more rules. Our basic rule is the following, we have small requests like the "Three Sacred Lines" thing too to keep comments short and sweet, and also small things like leaving overt politics and "dirty words" at the door. That's enough. We do pretty good around here most of the time I think.

The only 'rule' on the Forum, besides "Just Sitting" Zazen each day, is to be kind to each other and mutually maintain “gentle speech” in all communication, even when voices disagree on hot issues. Perhaps more than anything, this allows a warm, welcoming atmosphere for new and old, where people can open up without fear.

[Onka]

Extremely willing to move forward from my perspective. I'm acutely aware of my flaws, Practice or otherwise and all I ask for is gentle teaching publicly or privately. When I feel like I'm being policed walls go up and the less than attractive Anna appears. All assistance to metaphorically kill the less than attractive Anna is welcome. This is the first hierarchical relationship I've entered that I care about maintaining. Those that have taken the time to get to know me understand the Practice significance of this.
Deep bows
Onka
Sat today

I acknowledge going over 3 sentences. I felt it was important to do so in this instance.

[shikantazen]

Thank you Jundo for explaining in detail (though you don't need to). It felt like you both were fighting / arguing (calling him he is wrong and then immediately the shut up statement). May be we could avoid that finger pointing and cornering? I don't know, I am a bit conflict averse and conflict aversion may not be always right approach. As long as what you said is not in the heat of the moment and you meant what you said then it is fine.

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Jundo]

May be we could avoid that finger pointing and cornering? I don't know, I am a bit conflict averse and conflict aversion may not be always right approach. As long as what you said is not in the heat of the moment and you meant what you said then it is fine.

Well, no ... or maybe ... because sometimes one needs to be gentle and sometimes a bit more firm.

And that being said, Sam, SHUT UP and GO SIT!

(or, better, with your knees ... lie down. )

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jinyo]

I agree - we really don't need any more rules and we do do pretty good most of the time. A little conflict from time to time may also be beneficial as it doesn't hurt to have our feathers ruffled, remind ourselves of what matters and re-align.

Gassho,

Jinyo

Sat today

[Seishin]

No additional rules required, as folks have said this is a Sangha and not Facebook. You should conduct yourself as if you were in a bricks and mortar Sangha. We practice right thoughts, right words, right deeds, nothing to add.

sat / lah

[Tairin]

No additional rules required, as folks have said this is a Sangha and not Facebook. You should conduct yourself as if you were in a bricks and mortar Sangha. We practice right thoughts, right words, right deeds, nothing to add.

sat / lah

Agreed and well said.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Meitou]

No additional rules required, as folks have said this is a Sangha and not Facebook. You should conduct yourself as if you were in a bricks and mortar Sangha. We practice right thoughts, right words, right deeds, nothing to add.

sat / lah

Yes, you're right we shouldn't need this. As you say, we already have all the guidance needed, right there in our practice, as well as the (very few) requirements asked of us. Let's hope people can respect this.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[Seishin]

Hi Guys,

I sometimes ask my Japanese medical doctors and dentists what's the big difference between their Japanese and western patients. The answer is typically:

(1) the westerners ask a lot more questions and want explanations, while the Japanese generally do not and just do what the doctor says,
(2) the westerners often come with things they found on the internet, telling the doctor what the diagnosis is and what he should prescribe, and argue when the doctor disagrees, while the Japanese generally do not,
(3) the westerners complain and get in a huff quickly even in the face of good and sound treatments, while the Japanese generally do not, and last but not least,
(4) the Japanese generally take a bit of physical discomfort without complaint, while westerners scream at the mere sight of a needle!

Oh Jundo this did make me laugh. You cite the view of Japanese physicians and western patients but this is exactly the same conversation/observation our French doctor makes about her UK patients. My wife asks less questions these days but when she has, her doctor always asks why "do you English ask so many questions, I am the doctor not you". Maybe my lessons in suchness are beginning to pay off and my wife just goes with the flow but her Doctor still rants about her other "English" ie UK patients that tell her what is wrong, tell her what meds they need and then enter full Spanish Inquisition if they do not get the answer they want. Maybe its a US UK thing ???

Sat (in the comfy chair ala 2:50)

[Nengei]

Yes, and because of this, there are objections from Sangha members when they feel a post is disrespectful to Jundo, although there is no "rule" against questioning a teacher. Jundo handles it with good grace, but if a member is frequently questioning the customs of the Sangha and/or the teacher, they are not doing their own practice any justice. I am unaware of any other Sangha where there is such unlimited access to a transmitted teacher and would hope that would be kept in mind by all when posting, rather than us having to define this respect with a "rule."

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Gassho
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Hoseki]

Extremely willing to move forward from my perspective. I'm acutely aware of my flaws, Practice or otherwise and all I ask for is gentle teaching publicly or privately. When I feel like I'm being policed walls go up and the less than attractive Anna appears. All assistance to metaphorically kill the less than attractive Anna is welcome. This is the first hierarchical relationship I've entered that I care about maintaining. Those that have taken the time to get to know me understand the Practice significance of this.
Deep bows
Onka
Sat today

I acknowledge going over 3 sentences. I felt it was important to do so in this instance.

Hi Onka,

I don't know if it helps I don't look at the Sangha as a hierarchy with Jundo at the top (sorry Jundo) and me at the bottom but more like a group of people who are learning to be a certain way which may entail something different for each of us. So Jundo and our Unsui are more experienced practitioners. So I look to them for direction in the same way I might ask the misses with the fishing rod if she knows where the good fishing spots are.

Thoughts?

Note: Just a tad too long. My appologies.

Gassho
Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[gaurdianaq]

Hi Onka,

I don't know if it helps I don't look at the Sangha as a hierarchy with Jundo at the top (sorry Jundo) and me at the bottom but more like a group of people who are learning to be a certain way which may entail something different for each of us. So Jundo and our Unsui are more experienced practitioners. So I look to them for direction in the same way I might ask the misses with the fishing rod if she knows where the good fishing spots are.

Thoughts?

Note: Just a tad too long. My appologies.

Gassho
Hoseki
sattoday/lah

I don't see why it can't be both, yes Jundo is the head of treeleaf, but he's also no different than anyone else, not two, something like that. Just like we can drop all notions of right/wrong during zazen, and then still get up and have notions of right and wrong. We can trust in Jundo and the rest of the priests/unsui as leaders, but then still ask questions.

And as Jundo mentioned about the patients/doctors. Middle way, this has come to be my stance about almost everything, generally a healthy balance is needed. It's good for patients to ask questions of the doctor and further their own understanding. The doctor also needs to be willing to listen to the patient as well (how can a doctor make a diagnosis if they don't here the patient out), at the same time the patient also needs to understand the doctor is the expert.

It's no good if patients go demanding a specific prescription, that's ego, but on the flip side I have a friend with Stage 4 terminal cancer, in the past when he had went to the doctor they just insisted it was because he was overweight and they didn't take his concerns seriously, perhaps if the doctors has listened better they could have caught his cancer sooner.

Balance in everything... I can't stress how important that is, there needs to be a healthy balance...

Apologies for rambling but I just really needed to get this point across...


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jinyo]

Hi Onka,

I don't know if it helps I don't look at the Sangha as a hierarchy with Jundo at the top (sorry Jundo) and me at the bottom but more like a group of people who are learning to be a certain way which may entail something different for each of us. So Jundo and our Unsui are more experienced practitioners. So I look to them for direction in the same way I might ask the misses with the fishing rod if she knows where the good fishing spots are.

Thoughts?

Note: Just a tad too long. My appologies.

Gassho
Hoseki
sattoday/lah

I think that's a good way of looking at things and one that Jundo has stressed from time to time. At the end of the day we are all on a journey and though there may be common sign posts and stopping off places I think our personal experiences may differ - despite a commonality.

I experience Tree Leaf as a place of communal knowledge/sharing and a wonderful resource but the whole impetus of Zen (and possibly Buddhism in general) is that we must learn to trust in our own path and put 'the raft' down at some point. I'm not sure it helps - or is wise - to assume that others are somehow further along the path due to a belief in hierarchy. To my mind the priesthood is about service - which is admirable and I do feel gratitude for the commitment that involves - but in terms of sharing/learning or simply being touched (at times in quite a profound way) that often comes from a perspective a 'beginner' has shared ( we are all fundamentally beginners anyway- yes?).

There is instruction to be given and help to be given with it and then there is personal experience and a lived life. Jundo patiently repeats the instruction - for so many years now because that is his role freely given - and books to be read - hundreds of them if we're so inclined - but the really hard/interesting part of the journey is how do we fare with all of this in our everyday lives ? I think that's the part that keeps me coming back here - not for expertise or knowledge (helpful though that may be) - but the sheer human aspect of trying to lead a better life - be a better/ or at least more insightful person in my dealings with others.

Sorry this is a bit of a long ramble but it set me wondering what the basis/ and structure of our community is about and hierarchical didn't quite seem to fit.

Thank you Onka for stimulating the question.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat Today