(Non)Split Thread: Teachers & Students in the Modern, Western Sangha

[shikantazen]

JUNDO NOTE: I (UN)SPLIT THIS DISCUSSION FROM THIS THREAD: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ent-Shikantaza

But you are wrong, and I showed you such quotes.

You make assertions, but you don't offer much evidence or facts or supporting texts on your side beside your bare assertions. Put up or shut up ... and sit!

I believe the above two triggered the fight and honestly were unnecessary. Jundo did a great job in providing the links. I often wonder how intelligent, scholarly and passionate he must be to spend such energy on digging up stuff for a forum post. He did well there but later on the above two posts caused the problem. I find that Jundo naturally likes to argue and sometimes (seems like) wants to have the last word which can be upsetting for some folks who don't know him well. I wondered in my initial days on the forum how can zen teachers be like this. May be zen doesn't change some aspects of the nature of a person

I am not following AJ actively. I see he's opening a lot of threads and getting into intellectual discussions which may not help his practice. There is no need to either engage him or push him away

Gassho,
Sam
ST

OTHER JUNDO NOTE: I ADDED MY LITTLE SMILE EMOJI TO THE ABOVE QUOTE AS IT WAS IN THE ORIGINAL COMMENT

[Bion]

I believe the above two triggered the fight and honestly were unnecessary. Jundo did a great job in providing the links. I often wonder how intelligent, scholarly and passionate he must be to spend such energy on digging up stuff for a forum post. He did well there but later on the above two posts caused the problem. I find that Jundo naturally likes to argue and sometimes (seems like) wants to have the last word which can be upsetting for some folks who don't know him well. I wondered in my initial days on the forum how can zen teachers be like this. May be zen doesn't change some aspects of the nature of a person

I am not following AJ actively. I see he's opening a lot of threads and getting into intellectual discussions which may not help his practice. There is no need to either engage him or push him away

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I think the basic hierarchy of ANY zen sangha/temple/monastery is something we know. There is special emphasis put in Zen on the master - disciples relationship. There is a REASON for it.. Saying Jundo wants to have the last word is weird considering he should have the last word. I am curious whether anyone would simply walk into any temple in Japan for example and start accusing the abbot of being conceited, arrogant, a trouble maker etc...

Sorry about the extra lines.

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Michael Joseph]

I think the basic hierarchy of ANY zen sangha/temple/monastery is something we know. There is special emphasis put in Zen on the master - disciples relationship. There is a REASON for it.. Saying Jundo wants to have the last word is weird considering he should have the last word. I am curious whether anyone would simply walk into any temple in Japan for example and start accusing the abbot of being conceited, arrogant, a trouble maker etc...

Sorry about the extra lines.

[emoji1374] SatToday

I hesitated to say this, but I'm going to in two sentences. As a college teacher, especially in my composition classes, I ve found that the greatest impediment to a student's success is his/her inability to admit that what he/she thinks is the correct way to write an essay, or even a sentence, simply is not up to academic and professional standards. The difficulty for them is accepting that what has worked--and even received praise--prior to college will simply not allow them to engage in the kind of varied and sophisticated discourse that will become commonly for the next four years. In the end, students always THINK they know what they're going to learn, but when it comes to actually learning, the "good" student in any situation learns to learn the unexpected and unthought-of, while the "poor" student finds 10000 ways that the teacher is "wrong." (Sorry for the extra sentence.) And sometimes, the only and best instruction you can give to a student is "shut up." (Sorry for the extra sentence.)

Gassho,

Hobun

STLAH

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[Jakuden]

In the last two days I started to understand the meaning of Sangha as a practice. Very valuable lessons since yesterday from all of you.

Gassho
Sat

Exactly! There are some things about Zen practice that are a little clearer when visiting a brick-and-mortar Zen monastery. One thing I did not anticipate when I first attended one that is very difficult to convey here (although Treeleaf comes pretty close!) is what I think is a Japanese learning style, which is quite different from the West. Basically, very few "rules" are laid out for you either verbally or in writing, other than the schedule and some chants. Everything else you figure out from watching what everyone else does! It is unsettling and provokes no small anxiety for those of us used to the Western way. At any given time their might be doctors, students, recovering addicts, former prison inmates, folks from all "classes" and walks of life wandering around, sharing the same kitchen, dormitories, cushions in the Zendo, watching each other quietly and courteously following much the same routines which have been followed for hundreds of years in Zen Monasteries.

We can debate about this ad nauseaum, and whether it excludes some or is particularly difficult for others, but boy when you see it in action you really understand why it works to tame the ego. Most people have ended up at a monastery because they realized somewhere along the way that chasing comfort, safety and control was not working for them. But in order to learn what does work, they need to put the mental chatter aside and be very quiet and attentive at all times, because lessons are constantly unfolding around them, and they can't see or learn them when they are thinking about what the ego feels it must say about it next.

Many apologies in going over 3 sentences while advocating silent learning

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kokuu]

I think the basic hierarchy of ANY zen sangha/temple/monastery is something we know. There is special emphasis put in Zen on the master - disciples relationship. There is a REASON for it.. Saying Jundo wants to have the last word is weird considering he should have the last word. I am curious whether anyone would simply walk into any temple in Japan for example and start accusing the abbot of being conceited, arrogant, a trouble maker etc...

I think this is a really important point, Jake, and places like Reddit's r/zen do not help with this as when people come to Treeleaf they base their conduct on how to behave on what is acceptable or normal on a forum, rather than in a Zendo.

I am wondering if we have a post on expected conduct in the forum Zendo and, if not, I suspect we might do soon!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Onka]

Exactly! There are some things about Zen practice that are a little clearer when visiting a brick-and-mortar Zen monastery. One thing I did not anticipate when I first attended one that is very difficult to convey here (although Treeleaf comes pretty close!) is what I think is a Japanese learning style, which is quite different from the West. Basically, very few "rules" are laid out for you either verbally or in writing, other than the schedule and some chants. Everything else you figure out from watching what everyone else does! It is unsettling and provokes no small anxiety for those of us used to the Western way. At any given time their might be doctors, students, recovering addicts, former prison inmates, folks from all "classes" and walks of life wandering around, sharing the same kitchen, dormitories, cushions in the Zendo, watching each other quietly and courteously following much the same routines which have been followed for hundreds of years in Zen Monasteries.

We can debate about this ad nauseaum, and whether it excludes some or is particularly difficult for others, but boy when you see it in action you really understand why it works to tame the ego. Most people have ended up at a monastery because they realized somewhere along the way that chasing comfort, safety and control was not working for them. But in order to learn what does work, they need to put the mental chatter aside and be very quiet and attentive at all times, because lessons are constantly unfolding around them, and they can't see or learn them when they are thinking about what the ego feels it must say about it next.

Many apologies in going over 3 sentences while advocating silent learning

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

These are words I can connect with and feel.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Bion]

I think this is a really important point, Jake, and places like Reddit's r/zen do not help with this as when people come to Treeleaf they base their conduct on how to behave on what is acceptable or normal on a forum, rather than in a Zendo.

I am wondering if we have a post on expected conduct in the forum Zendo and, if not, I suspect we might do soon!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I think it might be a necessary thing. [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Onka]

I think this is a really important point, Jake, and places like Reddit's r/zen do not help with this as when people come to Treeleaf they base their conduct on how to behave on what is acceptable or normal on a forum, rather than in a Zendo.

I am wondering if we have a post on expected conduct in the forum Zendo and, if not, I suspect we might do soon!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I think a document on conduct such as not questioning priests would be helpful too. I wonder too whether emojis are helpful in seeing this as a zendo or just another Zen forum. Personally I find the use of emojis by priests to be an impediment to taking them seriously.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Bion]

I think a document on conduct such as not questioning priests would be helpful too. I wonder too whether emojis are helpful in seeing this as a zendo or just another Zen forum. Personally I find the use of emojis by priests to be an impediment to taking them seriously.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

In digital vocabulary emojis help convey the tone and intentions of words, compensating for the lack of visual queues. They are truly helpful in making conversations more real and humane. I don’t believe anyone’s mentioned “not questioning the priest” as a proposed rule.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jinyo]

I've been 'sitting' with this thread most of today - it's brought up lots of thoughts/feelings/reactions which I've been watching like waves - tide coming in - tide going out.
I deleted two posts because I felt I was commenting in haste.

Over the years I've learnt a lot about my reactions/ my 'ego' if we must use that word (have to use something) - from my simply being here and observing - and more importantly often resisting - the impulse to 'have my say'. I'm really struck by what Jakuden writes - a very clear expression of the process we're all called to work our way through ( thank you Jakuden.

It is humbling and sometimes difficult to have to follow rules or adhere to a certain etiquette when in general we live in an atmosphere of very little restraint but isn't that the
point of being a member of a Zendo?

One last sentence (sorry for going over) - the amount of trouble Jundo took to answer the original question illustrates what a phenomenal resource we have here regarding teaching/guidance - something to treasure surely - no matter if occasionally we're in disagreement with this or that?

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Tairin]

the amount of trouble Jundo took to answer the original question illustrates what a phenomenal resource we have here regarding teaching/guidance - something to treasure surely - no matter if occasionally we're in disagreement with this or that?

Totally agree with this.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Meitou]

It is humbling and sometimes difficult to have to follow rules or adhere to a certain etiquette when in general we live in an atmosphere of very little restraint but isn't that the
point of being a member of a Zendo?

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

Exactly this Jinyo, your experience today has mirrored mine.
Thank you Jakuden for bringing up silent learning, an important teaching.
We shouldn't really need a document on etiquette on how to behave in this Zendo, but I think maybe it's time, so that at least newcomers understand clearly that this is a Zendo, not a Facebook group, not Twitter, and that the way we conduct ourselves here is guided by our teacher, our priests - who in this thread have shown exactly why they are in those positions - and the Precepts.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Jakuden]

One last sentence (sorry for going over) - the amount of trouble Jundo took to answer the original question illustrates what a phenomenal resource we have here regarding teaching/guidance - something to treasure surely - no matter if occasionally we're in disagreement with this or that?

Yes, and because of this, there are objections from Sangha members when they feel a post is disrespectful to Jundo, although there is no "rule" against questioning a teacher. Jundo handles it with good grace, but if a member is frequently questioning the customs of the Sangha and/or the teacher, they are not doing their own practice any justice. I am unaware of any other Sangha where there is such unlimited access to a transmitted teacher and would hope that would be kept in mind by all when posting, rather than us having to define this respect with a "rule."

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Doshin]

Yes, and because of this, there are objections from Sangha members when they feel a post is disrespectful to Jundo, although there is no "rule" against questioning a teacher. Jundo handles it with good grace, but if a member is frequently questioning the customs of the Sangha and/or the teacher, they are not doing their own practice any justice. I am unaware of any other Sangha where there is such unlimited access to a transmitted teacher and would hope that would be kept in mind by all when posting, rather than us having to define this respect with a "rule."

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Doshin
St

[gaurdianaq]

Exactly! There are some things about Zen practice that are a little clearer when visiting a brick-and-mortar Zen monastery. One thing I did not anticipate when I first attended one that is very difficult to convey here (although Treeleaf comes pretty close!) is what I think is a Japanese learning style, which is quite different from the West. Basically, very few "rules" are laid out for you either verbally or in writing, other than the schedule and some chants. Everything else you figure out from watching what everyone else does! It is unsettling and provokes no small anxiety for those of us used to the Western way. At any given time their might be doctors, students, recovering addicts, former prison inmates, folks from all "classes" and walks of life wandering around, sharing the same kitchen, dormitories, cushions in the Zendo, watching each other quietly and courteously following much the same routines which have been followed for hundreds of years in Zen Monasteries.

We can debate about this ad nauseaum, and whether it excludes some or is particularly difficult for others, but boy when you see it in action you really understand why it works to tame the ego. Most people have ended up at a monastery because they realized somewhere along the way that chasing comfort, safety and control was not working for them. But in order to learn what does work, they need to put the mental chatter aside and be very quiet and attentive at all times, because lessons are constantly unfolding around them, and they can't see or learn them when they are thinking about what the ego feels it must say about it next.

Many apologies in going over 3 sentences while advocating silent learning

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

This definitely gives me some stuff to sit with...


Evan,
Sat today, lah