Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

[Onka]

It’s time for me to admit I’m wrong, and as any Zenie junkie it’s possible to get caught up in the rule and not the spirit. Yes, I wrote militiamen comments of more than a total, and a lot more, but I’m now saying tha as Littlejohn author of my first book of contemplation, The 12-step Buddhist, remarks in another way, his long term therapist is a Zen practicing therapist and his editorial advisor is Professor of Buddhist, Zen, studies at Columbia University, we sometimes fail to see need for an eclectic approach to our “whole” lives. Littlejohn suggests that so many of us talk the talk and fail to walk the walk. I became addicted to a particular prescription pain killer while claiming to be sober. Not so drastic but equally as devastating is the student of Zen who eats too much sugar, showers too much, spends into debt unfathomable, drives their car in excess of speed limits, beats children, hits animals, demands love when none is deserved, the list goes on and on. Littlejohn suggests that most of us can benefit from psychotherapy, primary care doctors or psychiatrists, and many are in need with the help of a doctor, psychoactive medications; he says so many are addicted to food, caffein, pop, substances we might not think, and he says all of us can benefit frome wholesome food and exercise. In other words, as a good Buddhist we can strive to be as healthy as possible. As the Literature of recovery states, reaching for a life preserver as “only the drowning” can. This is the state in which even the longtime recovery can bring us to.
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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Gassho Onka Sat today

[Jundo]

A lot of threads within this thread but I might suggest that it is key not to mix up the relative and absolute (albeit two sides of one coin) and in introducing different levels

Oh, I figured out something about what Uchiyama meant based on Japanese language ...

"I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as well have been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an accident.

From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident." ... [As to "undeniable reality"] It is also described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections. Everything is as it is. ... It is the reality of that which cannot be grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."

Uchiyama does not mean "accidental" as necessarily "random" or "an accident," because the meaning of 事故 (Jiko) in Japanese can also mean just "what happens due to circumstances." So, he means events that result due to various circumstances and causes coming together, whether due to identifiable causes or arbitrarily ... the "stuff that happens" in this world for various or whatever reasons.

In the "absolute" view that Jinyo mention, we drop all idea of "separate things that happen," and there is only wholeness. However, we can also see every single phenomenon ... every thing, person or moment ... as a pristine world until itself, perfectly just what it is, free of conceptions of any other thing or cause, as if the whole universe pours into that one thing and there is nothing else in the whole universe. Thus, as Kokuu says ...

As I understand it, form is not a delusion itself, but seeing form as fixed and solid rather than dependently-arisen and in flux is the delusion.

The appearances of separate things, persons, moments is a delusion, and all are swept away is wholeness AND YET, FROM THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE, the whole universe totally pours into each, so each thing, person, moment is precious and as real as real can be!

I believe that Uchiyama is speaking of seeing this world in all such ways.

Gassho, J
Sat todayLAH

[Jundo]

Things are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?

Oh, the human mind cuts the world up between the ears into things, names, categories, functions from our subjective perspective that help us navigate the world. As I like to say, there are probably some atoms "out there" in a certain configuration, but only our human minds see and name "a chair" because we have human butts that need to sit! A space creature without a butt would not see "a chair," and my cat does not see "a chair," only only surface to sleep on.

I've noticed massive shift in the way I relate to the world (similar stories to Jundo's flat tire) particularly with people. There's this one person to whom I always felt resentment because she wouldn't and didn't try to change. It is only when I discovered that I can relate to her in a different way she did change, as by miracle and we have the best relationship we ever had. Things are as they are and there are many different ways we can relate to them, in this creative process we dance our samsara. I guess?

Yes, but still, the change in my attitude do not fix the tire ... I still needed to get dirty, get the jack and do that. Our change in attitude sometimes changes the people, but sometimes not (I myself dealt with two difficult friends here in Japan yesterday that I cannot change them no matter my attitude, so I must keep some distance). However, we do have some ability to change how we react to the difficult situations between our ears.

One more example: When I had my cancer, I was pretty miserable and lonely one day in the hospital bed. Then, I decided to "Shikantaza" the experience and feel equanimity. Then, I even tried to feel "at home" in my bed, as if it was the best place in the world to be. I even experimented with "toggling" the switch between all three settings ... and I could! .... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ...

It did not change the objective situation one bit, but it changed everything!!

(Sorry, ran long but I am happy about it!)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

Oh, I figured out something about what Uchiyama meant based on Japanese language ...



Uchiyama does not mean "accidental" as necessarily "random" or "an accident," because the meaning of 事故 (Jiko) in Japanese can also mean just "what happens due to circumstances." So, he means events that result due to various circumstances and causes coming together, whether due to identifiable causes or arbitrarily ... the "stuff that happens" in this world for various or whatever reasons.

In the "absolute" view that Jinyo mention, we drop all idea of "separate things that happen," and there is only wholeness. However, we can also see every single phenomenon ... every thing, person or moment ... as a pristine world until itself, perfectly just what it is, free of conceptions of any other thing or cause, as if the whole universe pours into that one thing and there is nothing else in the whole universe. Thus, as Kokuu says ...



The appearances of separate things, persons, moments is a delusion, and all are swept away is wholeness AND YET, FROM THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE, the whole universe totally pours into each, so each thing, person, moment is precious and as real as real can be!

I believe that Uchiyama is speaking of seeing this world in all such ways.

Gassho, J
Sat todayLAH

Thank you for claryfing this lost in translation passage of text that I quoted.

Gassho
Sat

[Jinyo]

Yes, but still, the change in my attitude do not fix the tire ... I still needed to get dirty, get the jack and do that. Our change in attitude sometimes changes the people, but sometimes not (I myself dealt with two difficult friends here in Japan yesterday that I cannot change them no matter my attitude, so I must keep some distance). However, we do have some ability to change how we react to the difficult situations between our ears.

One more example: When I had my cancer, I was pretty miserable and lonely one day in the hospital bed. Then, I decided to "Shikantaza" the experience and feel equanimity. Then, I even tried to feel "at home" in my bed, as if it was the best place in the world to be. I even experimented with "toggling" the switch between all three settings ... and I could! .... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ...

It did not change the objective situation one bit, but it changed everything!!

Thank you Jundo - I think this teaching is key really. 'Toggling the switch' is a great metaphor that can really play out in the relative world as regards how we respond to challenges. There's some interesting work in Neuroscience that's applying practical methods to how we can work on our responses (Stephen Porges - Polyvagal theory) that fits with this.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Tai Shi]

Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

Hi Ania, thank you for this clarification. For nearly a year when I was 19 I lived and worked in Europe (Germany) where beer is taken with two meals a day from the time when clean water was scarce. So, the custom remains.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Inshin]

Yes, but still, the change in my attitude do not fix the tire ... I still needed to get dirty, get the jack and do that. Our change in attitude sometimes changes the people, but sometimes not (I myself dealt with two difficult friends here in Japan yesterday that I cannot change them no matter my attitude, so I must keep some distance). However, we do have some ability to change how we react to the difficult situations between our ears.

One more example: When I had my cancer, I was pretty miserable and lonely one day in the hospital bed. Then, I decided to "Shikantaza" the experience and feel equanimity. Then, I even dried to feel "at home" in my bed, as if it was the best place in the world to be. I even experimented with "toggling" the switch between all three settings ... and I could! .... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ...

It did not change the objective situation one bit, but it changed everything!!

Thank you Jundo - I think this teaching is key really. 'Toggling the switch' is a great metaphor that can really play out in the relative world as regards how we respond to challenges. There's some interesting work in Neuroscience that's applying practical methods to how we can work on our responses (Stephen Porges - Polyvagal theory) that fits with this.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

Thank you Jinyo for mentioning this, I'll check it out! As a new member of this Sangha and a newbie to Zen I find all of the members very inspiring, there's so much intersting stuff to find here! I find it fascinating to read scientific discoveries/theories that correlate with Dharma. I have just came across David Bohm "Wholeness and the implicate order" and his other two books with J. Krishnamurti "The end of time" and "The limits of Thought". Although tempted to dip into reading, I'm keeping it for after Ango : Shikantanza first - my head is already full of ideas and "discoveries".
Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

Hi Ania, thank you for this clarification. For nearly a year when I was 19 I lived and worked in Europe (Germany) where beer is taken with two meals a day from the time when clean water was scarce. Try he custom remains.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's interesting! Now I know where the saying "drink beer save water" comes from
I didn't intend a deeper meaning in the beer glass, I've mentioned it just as an example, it could have been anything else seemingly random!
Gassho
Sat

[gaurdianaq]

Things are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?
Gassho
Sat

There is a really interesting book I read recently that talks about this, it's called "No Self, No Problem" https://www.amazon.ca/No-Self-Proble...s%2C167&sr=8-1

One of the things the book mentions is the differences between the left and right brain (and how the left brain, which is associated with language processing, creates all these distinctions that separates this from that, me from you). The book covers some interesting cases where they talk about split brain patients (peoples who's left and right brains have been disconnected and can't communicate with each other), and how the left brain will completely ignore reality to come up with reasons that make sense. (They showed the right brain in these patients a set of instructions, that said laugh) and then asked the left brain why they laughed and it came up with a completely unrelated reason without hesitation.

To clarify, the left brain controls the right eye, and the right brain controls the left eye, so they could distinguish between these two by having someone close one eye so that only the right or left brain would process the image, and the left brain is responsible for processing language, so vocal questions would get processed by the left brain. At least, assuming my understanding is correct. Normally the two sides of the brain communicate with each other, but these split brain patients offered a unique opportunity to study the different sides of the brain.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[gaurdianaq]

Also thank you Ania for the book inspirations (David Bohm, Steven Porges) both sound fascinating!


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Ryumon]

The right/left brain stuff has been debunked. There are some brain processes that are lateralized, but not many.

https://www.britannica.com/story/are-there-really-right-brained-and-left-brained-people

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

[Jinyo]

Thank you Jinyo for mentioning this, I'll check it out! As a new member of this Sangha and a newbie to Zen I find all of the members very inspiring, there's so much intersting stuff to find here! I find it fascinating to read scientific discoveries/theories that correlate with Dharma. I have just came across David Bohm "Wholeness and the implicate order" and his other two books with J. Krishnamurti "The end of time" and "The limits of Thought". Although tempted to dip into reading, I'm keeping it for after Ango : Shikantanza first - my head is already full of ideas and "discoveries".
Gassho
Sat

Hello Ania,
I came across the David Bohm/Krishnamurti connection recently too. It is interesting and I'd like to follow up some time. The trouble is there's so much amazing reading/thoughts/ideas and I often get swamped!!

Gassho

Sat Today

[gaurdianaq]

The right/left brain stuff has been debunked. There are some brain processes that are lateralized, but not many.

https://www.britannica.com/story/are-there-really-right-brained-and-left-brained-people

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

That's not what I was referring to, and in fact that article refers to some of the same science the book I'm talking about references. That article is referring to the idea that you can be "right brained or left brained" and that one side associates with creativity and the other with logical thinking, which yes has been debunked. To quote the article you shared

Generally, the right hemisphere of the brain was found to be more proficient at spatial tasks, while the left side of the brain was found to be the center of language and problem-solving.

Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jinyo]

There is a really interesting book I read recently that talks about this, it's called "No Self, No Problem" https://www.amazon.ca/No-Self-Proble...s%2C167&sr=8-1

One of the things the book mentions is the differences between the left and right brain (and how the left brain, which is associated with language processing, creates all these distinctions that separates this from that, me from you). The book covers some interesting cases where they talk about split brain patients (peoples who's left and right brains have been disconnected and can't communicate with each other), and how the left brain will completely ignore reality to come up with reasons that make sense. (They showed the right brain in these patients a set of instructions, that said laugh) and then asked the left brain why they laughed and it came up with a completely unrelated reason without hesitation.

To clarify, the left brain controls the right eye, and the right brain controls the left eye, so they could distinguish between these two by having someone close one eye so that only the right or left brain would process the image, and the left brain is responsible for processing language, so vocal questions would get processed by the left brain. At least, assuming my understanding is correct. Normally the two sides of the brain communicate with each other, but these split brain patients offered a unique opportunity to study the different sides of the brain.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

You might be interested in Iain McGilchrist's 'The Master and His Emissary - The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World'. McGilchrist is a psychiatrist, philosopher and scientist - a remarkable book that's taking me a long time to read as incredible amount of research/thought gone into it and it's quite long! Well worth a read though.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat Today

[gaurdianaq]

You might be interested in Iain McGilchrist's 'The Master and His Emissary - The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World'. McGilchrist is a psychiatrist, philosopher and scientist - a remarkable book that's taking me a long time to read as incredible amount of research/thought gone into it and it's quite long! Well worth a read though.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat Today

Sounds right up my alley, I'll look them up. Thanks!


Evan,
Sat today, lah