Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

[Inshin]

Kōshō Uchiyama in his book Opening the Hand of Thought talks about randomness within karmic order and this got me intrigued, because sometimes during Zazen there's vast space within which occasionally a single image or a thought appears, popping up like a balloon and disappearing instantly.
Theese can be surprisingly random, like an animated glass of beer with smily face, and it can just disappear or become something else if I chose to relate to it, eg. by investigating where and why it came from, creating a story and maybe even resulting in me having some beer later on in the day.
"Form is Emptiness
Emptiness is Form" (form is form, emptiness is emptiness) - is samsara created by RELATING to form whithin emptiness?



Forgive my unscientific language, and weird example, it's all coming from my limited experience

Gassho
Sat

[Ryumon]

But they only seem random; they arise because of some connection in the mind that we can't see.

I find the most surprising version of this is when I'm taking a nap, just before falling asleep - or sometimes when I don't fully fall asleep - in what's called hypnogogic hallucinations. They can be long, almost cinematic stories that play out in my mind. Maybe they are a glimpse of another reality, another universe; or maybe it's just the mind mixing things up.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Ania

I agree with Kirk that things appear random but are the result of a complex web of cause and effect (known as pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising) which can produce results we are not expecting. Some of those might just be a product of the way the brain and visual system works.

But, when we sit and they appear, it can certainly be perceived as random as we wondering why a certain sound, smell or image has suddenly appeared in our brain!

As far as samsara goes in relation to form and emptiness, I would personally say that where we get trapped is in failing to see that form is a product of emptiness (all of those complex webs of interaction again which mean that nothing has an independent identity) and rather take it as real and solid not a passing phenomenon arising from causes and conditions.

This is why this stanza from The Heart Sutra is so important and central to Buddhist thinking:

ruupam shuunyataa form is emptiness
shuunyataiva ruupam emptiness is form
ruupaan na prithak shuunyataa form is not other than emptiness
shuunyataayaa na prithag ruupam emptiness is not other than form

I see this as looking at phenomena from two directions. Firstly, if we look at individual forms, such as a tree, a dog or even an Ania, we can see that they are the product of many different causes that come together to produce that form.

Then, if we look at all phenomena in terms of the totality of existence throughout space and time, we see that this manifests as individual forms, such as trees, dogs and Anias.

Looking at either the totality or the individual forms is only ever half of the picture. By seeing the whole and the individual we understand how everything arises and passes away not separate from everything that is. When we chant The Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai) in each four hour Zazenkai, this chant is talking about precisely this.

Apologies for vastly exceeding my three sentence allocation.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Tai Shi]

I doubt that Uchiyama would partake of any alcohol knowing that alcohol causes alcoholic ramifications.
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[Inshin]

Thank you Kirk and Kokuu. That is how I also understood this until I read the following from Kosho Uchiyama.

"I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being
accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing
that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as wellhave been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not
have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any
place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an
accident.
From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and
the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident."
"What we call “I” or “ego” arises by chance or accident, so we just let go
instead of grasping thoughts and “I.” When we let go of all our notions
about things, everything becomes really true. This is the fourth
undeniable reality, complete tranquillity, or nehan jakujō. It is also
described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let
go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections.
Everything is as it is. Everything exists in one accidental way or another.
This is the present reality of life. It is the reality of that which cannot be
grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very
ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."

Appologies for this quote going over 3 sentence.

Gassho
Sat

[Tai Shi]

I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[Ryumon]

I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi

Mine. Was. Only four sentences.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Tai Shi]

Since a writing and reading journal are part of my contemplation I see no contradiction so writing is contemplation.
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[Inshin]

I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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If anyone would like to express their thoughts about this thread in more than 3 sentences please feel free to PM me
Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Ania

I think Uchiyama is talking about the same thing we all are, in different terms. Accidental reality is all things that are produced by dependent arising i.e. all conditioned phenomena.

However, when we sit and let go of all ideas about things, we just let them be as they are, and stop putting labels on things (=absolute reality)

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Kokuu]

I doubt that Uchiyama would partake of any alcohol knowing that alcohol causes alcoholic ramifications

I don't know, Tai Shi. Quite a few Zen teachers were fond of a wee tipple and sometimes more!

Alcohol can sometimes lead to alcoholism and sometimes it is just one drink every now and again.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Meitou]

Hi Ania

I agree with Kirk that things appear random but are the result of a complex web of cause and effect (known as pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising) which can produce results we are not expecting. Some of those might just be a product of the way the brain and visual system works.

But, when we sit and they appear, it can certainly be perceived as random as we wondering why a certain sound, smell or image has suddenly appeared in our brain!

As far as samsara goes in relation to form and emptiness, I would personally say that where we get trapped is in failing to see that form is a product of emptiness (all of those complex webs of interaction again which mean that nothing has an independent identity) and rather take it as real and solid not a passing phenomenon arising from causes and conditions.

This is why this stanza from The Heart Sutra is so important and central to Buddhist thinking:

ruupam shuunyataa form is emptiness
shuunyataiva ruupam emptiness is form
ruupaan na prithak shuunyataa form is not other than emptiness
shuunyataayaa na prithag ruupam emptiness is not other than form

I see this as looking at phenomena from two directions. Firstly, if we look at individual forms, such as a tree, a dog or even an Ania, we can see that they are the product of many different causes that come together to produce that form.

Then, if we look at all phenomena in terms of the totality of existence throughout space and time, we see that this manifests as individual forms, such as trees, dogs and Anias.

Looking at either the totality or the individual forms is only ever half of the picture. By seeing the whole and the individual we understand how everything arises and passes away not separate from everything that is. When we chant The Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai) in each four hour Zazenkai, this chant is talking about precisely this.

Apologies for vastly exceeding my three sentence allocation.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

A most excellent explanation of that tricky concept Kokuu!
Thank you friend.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Tai Shi]

It’s time for me to admit I’m wrong, and as any Zenie junkie it’s possible to get caught up in the rule and not the spirit. Yes, I wrote militiamen comments of more than a total, and a lot more, but I’m now saying tha as Littlejohn author of my first book of contemplation, The 12-step Buddhist, remarks in another way, his long term therapist is a Zen practicing therapist and his editorial advisor is Professor of Buddhist, Zen, studies at Columbia University, we sometimes fail to see need for an eclectic approach to our “whole” lives. Littlejohn suggests that so many of us talk the talk and fail to walk the walk. I became addicted to a particular prescription pain killer while claiming to be sober. Not so drastic but equally as devastating is the student of Zen who eats too much sugar, showers too much, spends into debt unfathomable, drives their car in excess of speed limits, beats children, hits animals, demands love when none is deserved, the list goes on and on. Littlejohn suggests that most of us can benefit from psychotherapy, primary care doctors or psychiatrists, and many are in need with the help of a doctor, psychoactive medications; he says so many are addicted to food, caffein, pop, substances we might not think, and he says all of us can benefit frome wholesome food and exercise. In other words, as a good Buddhist we can strive to be as healthy as possible. As the Literature of recovery states, reaching for a life preserver as “only the drowning” can. This is the state in which even the longtime recovery can bring us to.
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[gaurdianaq]

because sometimes during Zazen there's vast space within which occasionally a single image or a thought appears, popping up like a balloon and disappearing instantly.

Theese can be surprisingly random, like an animated glass of beer with smily face, and it can just disappear or become something else if I chose to relate to it, eg. by investigating where and why it came from, creating a story and maybe even resulting in me having some beer later on in the day.

I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Tai Shi]

So the aim in Zazen is blankness? Does this not raise blank to special place. Is not blank the goal not the hole less goal?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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