Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

[Margherita]

I think Kirk is partially right, partially because for a hypnogogic image to be present I think you have to be nearly asleep (I have them often before bed time and at times during zazen, when I am very sleepy). Just maybe, it is only a natural response of your brain: it craves information and when it won't receive any because you are staring at a wall, it will create some of its own. I suppose, from a Buddhist perspective, look at them and pass on, without grasping these images?

Gassho,
Mags
ST

PS I love how random these images can get, they are very interesting and at times they can include other senses as well.

[Margherita]

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)


Evan,
Sat today, lah

I do have them, but they won't last too long. At the beginning that's what I was aiming for, no more now. I just try not to cling to my thoughts, bring back my attention to the breath, the posture, the hara.

Gassho,
Mags
ST

PS I apologise but I realised I missed the non-zazen part! Maybe I should go to bed. Anyway, Yes, I have these moments at times but they don't last long, I try to concentrate on my hara and breath when walking or doing other activities. Not all the time, though...

[gaurdianaq]

I do have them, but they won't last too long. At the beginning that's what I was aiming for, no more now. I just try not to cling to my thoughts, bring back my attention to the breath, the posture, the hara.

Gassho,
Mags
ST

PS I apologise but I realised I missed the non-zazen part! Maybe I should go to bed. Anyway, Yes, I have these moments at times but they don't last long, I try to concentrate on my hara and breath when walking or doing other activities. Not all the time, though...

Interesting, how long is not long? Like few seconds, or a few minutes? (Also sleep well!)


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Risho]

That not clinging and not avoiding is the true calm beyond calm and stormy. zazen is weird sometimes; sometimes it’s stormy sometimes it’s calm; sometimes it’s serene, and you really, really want to stay there, but it’s just the mind doing it’s thing. There is a point where calm is just calm and stormy is stormy; you sit literally beyond the calm and the stormy (or the dark and stormy lol) which is a deep calm or abiding; it’s that dropping of preferences; letting whatever comes up come up; then again it’s just the scenery of zazen (I think that is a phrase Uchiyama roshi would say); my mind is wily and will always try to latch onto something; gotta keep an eye on it. lol

It’s kind of interesting: zazen teaches you to maybe not believe what you think so much; my mind us always throwing up crap. For example, “I’m bored” or I’m not good enough” or “I’m the best”. None of those are really true.

Apologies for the extra sentences

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Tairin]

do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen).

Yes occasionally it happens to me during Zazen where I’ll suddenly realize I’ve been sitting still with a quiet mind for some period of time (could be seconds or minutes) It isn’t a forced thing, it just happens occasionally. Of course as soon as I realize it has happened it is gone.

Admittedly it is nice while it occurs but I try to not cling to those moments.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

We should be a little cautious about falling into too much intellectual thinking and mental wheel turning on this.

Thoughts come and go in Zazen, just do not grab them or become entangled, just let them go. Sometimes there are also wide open spaces between thoughts, clear and still, in which nothing really is being thought, maybe just a kind of bare consciousness. Cherish the clear and silent spaces. However, also know that both are fine, and that both thoughts and spaces are the very same boundless, open, unobstructed sky. Know the clear, still and boundless that shines even through the passing thoughts. Risho and Tairin say it so nicely.

Strange images or thoughts sometimes arise in Zazen, like the smiley beer glass. Just let it go too. However, on the philosophical question of whether it is caused or "random," both Buddhism and physics leave room for debate. Oh there may be various intersecting causes (e.g., a beer commercial you saw months before which made you smile, your tiredness, the temperature in the room, what you ate for dinner which is upsetting your stomach, and 1001 other factors), but our human lives are the intersection point of so many factors coming together in a particular place and time in nearly chaotic fashion, emergence of properties very different from their constituent elements (e.g., how hydrogen and oxygen somehow become a "snow storm"), any quantum randomness and just blind luck, that life may be "random" in great aspect, or for all intents and purposes. Did we end up in this life, on this planet, because it is foretold in a "Great Book" somewhere, or are we basically a cosmic hiccup and roll of the dice, or something else?

In any case, here we find ourselves, living and dreaming. Live and dream well. If finding oneself near a stream with a pail in hand, dream or not, fetch water.

It is very simple to realize that one has been dreaming strange dreams when we wake up in the morning. It is much harder for human beings to "awaken" to realize that this ordinary, seemingly solid daytime world is also a dream.

(Sorry, I dreamt more than 3 sentences)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

I don’t believe in 1/2 image when it comes to Zen. Shikantaza is not hypnogogic nor dream like, nor some state 1/2 between wake and sleep.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


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[Tai Shi]

Or is it?
Gassho/ sat/ lah/ Tai Shi


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[Risho]

thank you Jundo for that post/teaching; I’m really diggin’ on that dream theme lately

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Tosei]

Thank you Jundo. There is SO much in your final paragraph, clearly stated.

Gassho,

Peter

ST

[Jinyo]

Thank you Kirk and Kokuu. That is how I also understood this until I read the following from Kosho Uchiyama.

"I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being
accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing
that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as wellhave been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not
have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any
place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an
accident.
From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and
the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident."
"What we call “I” or “ego” arises by chance or accident, so we just let go
instead of grasping thoughts and “I.” When we let go of all our notions
about things, everything becomes really true. This is the fourth
undeniable reality, complete tranquillity, or nehan jakujō. It is also
described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let
go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections.
Everything is as it is. Everything exists in one accidental way or another.
This is the present reality of life. It is the reality of that which cannot be
grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very
ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."

Appologies for this quote going over 3 sentence.

Gassho
Sat

A lot of threads within this thread but I might suggest that it is key not to mix up the relative and absolute (albeit two sides of one coin) and in introducing different levels
Uchiyama implies that tranquility of thought (a mind that is 'quiet' - not attaching to labelling/differentiation) is to be located within the 'Ultimate' and therefore possibly has a transcendent aspect - as the mind is rising above our everyday racing thoughts - whilst not denying that the everyday aspect of mind exists. For myself, I only ever have brief glimpses of tranquility so not at the level of acceptance that that which can not be named 'is what is absolutely real about things'. I live most of life within the 'great doubt' that paradoxically enthuses my practice.

This doubt tells me that it is possibly unwise to underplay the substantiality of the accident that is 'I' as it materializes in our relative world and also to note the western version of 'ego' or 'I' is rather different to that expressed in eastern religions and as a result certain implications seem to get lost in translation. I feel its tenuous to see everything in our relative world as based on artificial connections - and it's really worth investigating why we need to make such a differentiation?

Sorry - too many words but not enough to fully express where I'm going with this.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Inshin]

We should be a little cautious about falling into too much intellectual thinking and mental wheel turning on this.

Thoughts come and go in Zazen, just do not grab them or become entangled, just let them go. Sometimes there are also wide open spaces between thoughts, clear and still, in which nothing really is being thought, maybe just a kind of bare consciousness. Cherish the clear and silent spaces. However, also know that both are fine, and that both thoughts and spaces are the very same boundless, open, unobstructed sky. Know the clear, still and boundless that shines even through the passing thoughts. Risho and Tairin say it so nicely.

Strange images or thoughts sometimes arise in Zazen, like the smiley beer glass. Just let it go too. However, on the philosophical question of whether it is caused or "random," both Buddhism and physics leave room for debate. Oh there may be various intersecting causes (e.g., a beer commercial you saw months before which made you smile, your tiredness, the temperature in the room, what you ate for dinner which is upsetting your stomach, and 1001 other factors), but our human lives are the intersection point of so many factors coming together in a particular place and time in nearly chaotic fashion, emergence of properties very different from their constituent elements (e.g., how hydrogen and oxygen somehow become a "snow storm"), any quantum randomness and just blind luck, that life may be "random" in great aspect, or for all intents and purposes. Did we end up in this life, on this planet, because it is foretold in a "Great Book" somewhere, or are we basically a cosmic hiccup and roll of the dice, or something else?

In any case, here we find ourselves, living and dreaming. Live and dream well. If finding oneself near a stream with a pail in hand, dream or not, fetch water.

It is very simple to realize that one has been dreaming strange dreams when we wake up in the morning. It is much harder for human beings to "awaken" to realize that this ordinary, seemingly solid daytime world is also a dream.

(Sorry, I dreamt more than 3 sentences)

Gassho, J

STLah

Things are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?
Two particles with different properties are as they are, but when they start to relate to each other (for whatever reason, chance/predisposition) they change, and it is the same with us.
It is fascinating because it can be experienced in meditation and daily life : in the last year I've noticed massive shift in the way I relate to the world (similar stories to Jundo's flat tire) particularly with people. There's this one person to whom I always felt resentment because she wouldn't and didn't try to change. It is only when I discovered that I can relate to her in a different way she did change, as by miracle and we have the best relationship we ever had. Things are as they are and there are many different ways we can relate to them, in this creative process we dance our samsara. I guess?

Forgive my curious ego going over 3 sentences.

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

hings are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?

Hi Ania

As I understand it, form is not a delusion itself, but seeing form as fixed and solid rather than dependently-arisen and in flux is the delusion.

In navigating daily life we need to have names for things and people, but suffering occurs once we have mental images of how we expect things to behave that we relate to and we become upset when they don't meet our expectations.

If we meet people and things as they are rather than as we want them to be, life becomes much easier, as I think you have found with your co-worker.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Eva]

Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

Hello Evan,

I would suggest you look into what you call "a quiet mind". We do not have it, we are it . It's just grossly overlooked in every moment , so our attention holds onto the busy, thought/image filled activity .

In zazen, while seated, we let the attention relax a little bit and this allows us to notice the quiet . It might be just a tiny glimpse before big juicy colorful thought/image . That tiny glimpse of a moment is not to be grabbed either; just to see - here. And should another thought/image arise , you simply return again to that relaxed moment . We are not chasing the quiet, or moments of quietness or trying to freeze the silent "state", we simply allow the gap between one thought and the next expand a little bit, by itself . Just allowing freely, there is nothing you can do or force here .

I get the silence, I get thoughts, I get the returning and I get the dropping off body and mind . It does n't mean anything, either to have or not to have . Just return again and again and again .

Gassho,
eva
sattoday /my sincere apologies going over 3 sentences

[Margherita]

Interesting, how long is not long? Like few seconds, or a few minutes? (Also sleep well!)


Evan,
Sat today, lah

Ahahah I didn't sleep well but I'm full of energy! Just maybe 30 secs to a minute, then disappear, then it could come back. Who knows, I don't keep count anyway[emoji6]

Gassho,
Mags
ST

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