Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

[Bion]

So the aim in Zazen is blankness? Does this not raise blank to special place. Is not blank the goal not the hole less goal?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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I wouldn’t say the aim is blankness at all, since we can’t stop thinking and it happens whether we want it to or not. Allowing it to happen, recognizing it but not reacting to it is what we aim for. Whenever we latch on to a thought, we should aim to let go of it and just think the thought of zazen and then zazen will think its own thoughts.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Inshin]

I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences


Evan,
Sat today, lah

I wouldn't describe it as blankness, and I don't believe that blankness is a goal of Zazen, since Zazen is goalless, so I let everything be as it is.
It's just happens sometimes as sort of "active/or alive stillness without internal monologue but merely "seeds" of thoughts or images appear occasionally and dissappear immediately.
They can be grasped and then it becomes internal story/monologue, since my curiosity about randomness.

Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences


Evan,
Sat today, lah

I'm not any specialist, so I may wrong, but I suspect that the only difference in ADHD is that you experience throughs happening faster and seemingly more random. But also for you there has to be a moment before a thought arise - it fascinates me to observe this happening.
And again - who is observing?
Gassho
Sat

[gaurdianaq]

I wouldn't describe it as blankness, and I don't believe that blankness is a goal of Zazen, since Zazen is goalless, so I let everything be as it is.
It's just happens sometimes as sort of "active/or alive stillness without internal monologue but merely "seeds" of thoughts or images appear occasionally and dissappear immediately.
They can be grasped and then it becomes internal story/monologue, since my curiosity about randomness.

Gassho
Sat

I don't mean blankness/stillness as a goal, it's just a foreign concept for me to ever truly have a still mind. I just tend to try to ignore the noise (imagine someone constantly talking your ear off/playing songs, you don't tell them to go away, but you also don't respond, that's how I tend to find my Zazen)

I'm not any specialist, so I may wrong, but I suspect that the only difference in ADHD is that you experience throughs happening faster and seemingly more random. But also for you there has to be a moment before a thought arise - it fascinates me to observe this happening.

If there is, it's so small that it's not really perceptible. Mainly feels like a constant stream of thoughts, just like how a river is never really still.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Kokuu]

I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak?

As others have said, a blank mind is not the aim of Zazen.

However, we may notice that thoughts and other sensations are coming and going in open awareness.

In terms of an often used metaphor for meditation, we notice both the clouds and the sky, the thoughts and the awareness they occur in.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[gaurdianaq]

As others have said, a blank mind is not the aim of Zazen.

However, we may notice that thoughts and other sensations are coming and going in open awareness.

In terms of an often used metaphor for meditation, we notice both the clouds and the sky, the thoughts and the awareness they occur in.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Tai Shi]

Yes I see not placing it above or below. Letting it happen as Jundo and scenery.
Gassho


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[Kokuu]

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)

Ah, okay! Thank you for clarifying.

In that case, the answer is sometimes.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)


Evan,
Sat today, lah

It is very important to define “quiet” before accepting answers, because your quiet might not be my quieto or someone else’s. What’s important to remember about zazen is that it is your alone and new every single time you sit, so the zazen from yesterday has nothing to do with that of today and tomorrow and whether your thought were scattered, chaotic, organized or calm, the zazen was complete with nothing lacking.
To give you a straightforward answer from my experience: to me, quiet means focused on being focused, or rather thinking just the thought of zazen. Awareness of the posture, of tension and tenseness, of breath and senses and no interaction with the thoughts. I remain i that state more often than in an agitated state. And as soon as I catch the mind grabbing thoughts, I go back to my breath, the mudra and the posture.


So sorry about the extra sentences! I couldn’t say all that in less phrases.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[gaurdianaq]

It is very important to define “quiet” before accepting answers, because your quiet might not be my quieto or someone else’s. What’s important to remember about zazen is that it is your alone and new every single time you sit, so the zazen from yesterday has nothing to do with that of today and tomorrow and whether your thought were scattered, chaotic, organized or calm, the zazen was complete with nothing lacking.
To give you a straightforward answer from my experience: to me, quiet means focused on being focused, or rather thinking just the thought of zazen. Awareness of the posture, of tension and tenseness, of breath and senses and no interaction with the thoughts. I remain i that state more often than in an agitated state. And as soon as I catch the mind grabbing thoughts, I go back to my breath, the mudra and the posture.


So sorry about the extra sentences! I couldn’t say all that in less phrases.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Quiet means not having a song playing on loop, a period where there isn't some random thought going through the mind. Even if that period is just 5 seconds.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

Quiet means not having a song playing on loop, a period where there isn't some random thought going through the mind. Even if that period is just 5 seconds.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

In my experience, there is always a thought Evan, even if it’s the thought of zazen. In your case, your ADHD makes the experience so much more personal but whatever the rest of us experience might not happen to you and that is fine. If a song starts playing in your mind, go back to your breath and follow it a bit and if the song starts again do a whole body scan.. check for posture, check the mudra, figure out where there is tenseness and stay with the present moment focusing on being focused but try not to give too much importance to “quietness”.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[gaurdianaq]

In my experience, there is always a thought Evan, even if it’s the thought of zazen. In your case, your ADHD makes the experience so much more personal but whatever the rest of us experience might not happen to you and that is fine. If a song starts playing in your mind, go back to your breath and follow it a bit and if the song starts again do a whole body scan.. check for posture, check the mudra, figure out where there is tenseness and stay with the present moment focusing on being focused but try not to give too much importance to “quietness”.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

Got it. Sorry! I wasn’t meaning to give advice even though I slipped into it.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Tai Shi]

Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

This is not a Game of Thrones or any other but I do appreciate the quiet mind. When I have been leaving an uncomfortable mind set or entering antithesis gas or IV, or medical
treatment it’s helped to remember Jundo’s advice to me. Chant to myself a “Judeo/Christian” prayer then count my breathing. This helps me calm and enter the “highway” with my “car” and ease Into my experience noticing scenery left and right. Jundo’s metaphors and my own experience bring me into Shikantaza. For others another chant might work just as well.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi

[Tai Shi]

From here on out, for a while, if not for good, I’ll try for “good” I’ll keep commentary to 3 lines. Jundo’s good to me.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


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