Moving from a selfish practice to practice for all

[Inshin]

I'm note talking about psychedelics, but rather alterations to the DNA leading to changes in brain structure, nano-implants to regulate brain firings, chemical regulation of our most harmful addictions, damaging emotions and destructive drives, all to reduce our tendencies toward violence, to make us more charitable and empathetic, less generally selfish, and to soften the brain created borders of the "self/other" divide and the like.

Anyway, we are way off topic here ... You will just have to wait and someday read in the future my book about all this called: "ZEN of the FUTURE!"

I am generally against psychedelics (although I understand that people may experiment at certain times in life). Psychedelics do more harm than good. Zen practice is a day by day integration of wisdom and insight into our life, and some quick "trips" don't do that ... and may lead us down totally the wrong paths too.

Gassho, J

STLah

I am sorry, I feel like I'm putting a stick in the ants nest here. There's has been a lot of scientific research on how psilocybin found in "magic mushrooms" can help treat clinical depression by changing the structure of the brain. In a similar way long term meditation changes the brain waves. I believe though that Zen is much more than Kensho, or a "trip into the nature of the universe". Hakuin wrote a bit about wasted Satoris, because some masters got "Zen sickness" and couldn't realise the Way in ordinary daily life.
Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

For instance, you've mentioned the atrocities committed by Chogyam Trungpa before. It would be wrong to say that the harm was only in the heads of the victims.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I'm reading a book now by Chogyam Trungpa, I wasn't aware of any atrocities he committed?
Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

I am sorry, I feel like I'm putting a stick in the ants nest here. There's has been a lot of scientific research on how psilocybin found in "magic mushrooms" can help treat clinical depression by changing the structure of the brain. ....

...

I'm reading a book now by Chogyam Trungpa, I wasn't aware of any atrocities he committed?

I am very interested in this research that has been ongoing for a few years now, and it seems that psilocybin experiences in a clinical setting have been shown to have very positive effects on the mental health of those with terminal diseases. I am not opposed to such uses at all. Here is one example:

Johns Hopkins Study of Psilocybin in Cancer Patient

https://maps.org/other-psychedelic-research/211-psilocybin-research/psilocybin-studies-in-progress/1268-johns_hopkins_study_of_psilocybin_in_cancer_patients

For point of reference and self-disclosure, I experimented "back in the 70's" with a bit of this and that, although never to the point that it took over my life or seemed to cause me any harm. I value the experiences, which were lessons on the power of the mind. I am not opposed to some experimentation at certain points in life. But, as you say, that is not Zen practice, which is also "mind eye opening," but also totally down to earth and ordinary in our day to day living. We do not need any mind altering substances apart from Zazen and our practice.

And speaking of the harmful effects of drugs and alcohol ... Trungpa is a case study. I think that he was a sociopath and narcissist (all while teaching lessons on "non-ego"), in addition to being a sex and drug addict. He had some brilliant insights, and he was charismatic, but his behavior did not match the words. His successors in that organization, right down to current times, have exhibited like behavior. I risk violating the Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists in their failings, but I mean to do so as a lesson on what can go wrong in a Buddhist group. The following is worth reading:

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/encounter-shadow-buddhist-america/

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I'm reading a book now by Chogyam Trungpa, I wasn't aware of any atrocities he committed?
Gassho
Sat

Some of his stuff is a decent spiritual exercise to read independent of his faults. With certain gifts and opportunities people can deliver some gems and at the same time not necessarily be a very good person or someone you would want to trust yourself to. I've never gotten close to seeing the messed up side of Shambhala in person although I did attend regularly for a year while knowing (because of avid reading) that it was there.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I am very interested in this research that has been ongoing for a few years now, and it seems that psilocybin experiences in a clinical setting have been shown to have very positive effects on the mental health of those with terminal diseases. I am not opposed to such uses at all. Here is one example:

Johns Hopkins Study of Psilocybin in Cancer Patient

https://maps.org/other-psychedelic-research/211-psilocybin-research/psilocybin-studies-in-progress/1268-johns_hopkins_study_of_psilocybin_in_cancer_patients

For point of reference and self-disclosure, I experimented "back in the 70's" with a bit of this and that, although never to the point that it took over my life or seemed to cause me any harm. I value the experiences, which were lessons on the power of the mind. I am not opposed to some experimentation at certain points in life. But, as you say, that is not Zen practice, which is also "mind eye opening," but also totally down to earth and ordinary in our day to day living. We do not need any mind altering substances apart from Zazen and our practice.

And speaking of the harmful effects of drugs and alcohol ... Trungpa is a case study. I think that he was a sociopath and narcissist (all while teaching lessons on "non-ego"), in addition to being a sex and drug addict. He had some brilliant insights, and he was charismatic, but his behavior did not match the words. His successors in that organization, right down to current times, have exhibited like behavior. I risk violating the Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists in their failings, but I mean to do so as a lesson on what can go wrong in a Buddhist group. The following is worth reading:

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/encounter-shadow-buddhist-america/

Gassho, J

STLah

From cacti, to fungi, to various sorts of plants and animals including toads, the widespread proliferation in nature of such resources along with the medicinal/mystical value placed on them by many ancient cultures was enough for me personally to investigate. I know for myself it always came down to how those experiences would effect the way I think, feel and live so there wasn't any need to stay there all the time. One of the many consistent psychedelic impressions I received was that the mundane is profound and the profound is mundane... not Zen but Zen enough for me.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

.... the mundane is profound and the profound is mundane... Zen enough

mundane profound profound mundane ...

Now, just put all that stuff down and simply sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

mundane profound profound mundane ...

Now, just put all that stuff down and simply sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

STLah

Funny how that is the hardest part to do for so many of us... just let mind drop off, body drop off and sit. There is no debate in sitting, no winning an argument, no showing off of knowledge, no merit, no wisdom or foolishness. What do they call it?! Good for nothing [emoji1]

SatToday lah

[A.J.]

mundane profound profound mundane ...

Now, just put all that stuff down and simply sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

STLah

Having a regular practice of sitting that's pretty much what happens. Nevertheless there are many facets of life to be interested in which I happily allow. I enjoy poetry and therefore I enjoy the communication of insights through words.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Funny how that is the hardest part to do for so many of us... just let mind drop off, body drop off and sit. There is no debate in sitting, no winning an argument, no showing off of knowledge, no merit, no wisdom or foolishness. What do they call it?! Good for nothing [emoji1]

SatToday lah

Nevertheless if that was all of life there would be no exchange in dialogue, be it discussion of differences in thought or otherwise. Buddhism shouldn't be a just-sit echo chamber just because just-sitting is the meditation practice.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Bion]

Nevertheless if that was all of life there would be no exchange in dialogue, be it discussion of differences in thought or otherwise. Buddhism shouldn't be a just-sit echo chamber just because just-sitting is the meditation practice.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I think there is more life without exchange in dialogue than the other way around. Buddhism means walking the path of enlightenment and I don’t think that can be equated with endless debating and bickering and forming of opinions and concepts although discussions and exchanges of ideas certainly has its place. Shikantaza is not really meditation practice since we don’t spend the time we’re sitting neither pondering ideas and concepts, nor visualizing things with the goal of achieving something.

SatToday

[nknibbs]

I think there is more life without exchange in dialogue than the other way around. Buddhism means walking the path of enlightenment and I don’t think that can be equated with endless debating and bickering and forming of opinions and concepts although discussions and exchanges of ideas certainly has its place. Shikantaza is not really meditation practice since we don’t spend the time we’re sitting neither pondering ideas and concepts, nor visualizing things with the goal of achieving something.

SatToday

Well said. The deeper you go into the philosophy, the further you can find yourself from practice (though not always of course).

Gassho,
Nick

Sat

[Amelia]

I am very interested in this research that has been ongoing for a few years now, and it seems that psilocybin experiences in a clinical setting have been shown to have very positive effects on the mental health of those with terminal diseases. I am not opposed to such uses at all. Here is one example:

Johns Hopkins Study of Psilocybin in Cancer Patient

https://maps.org/other-psychedelic-research/211-psilocybin-research/psilocybin-studies-in-progress/1268-johns_hopkins_study_of_psilocybin_in_cancer_patients

For point of reference and self-disclosure, I experimented "back in the 70's" with a bit of this and that, although never to the point that it took over my life or seemed to cause me any harm. I value the experiences, which were lessons on the power of the mind. I am not opposed to some experimentation at certain points in life. But, as you say, that is not Zen practice, which is also "mind eye opening," but also totally down to earth and ordinary in our day to day living. We do not need any mind altering substances apart from Zazen and our practice.

And speaking of the harmful effects of drugs and alcohol ... Trungpa is a case study. I think that he was a sociopath and narcissist (all while teaching lessons on "non-ego"), in addition to being a sex and drug addict. He had some brilliant insights, and he was charismatic, but his behavior did not match the words. His successors in that organization, right down to current times, have exhibited like behavior. I risk violating the Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists in their failings, but I mean to do so as a lesson on what can go wrong in a Buddhist group. The following is worth reading:

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/encounter-shadow-buddhist-america/

Gassho, J

STLah

I can personally attest to the benefits of a supplement of very small, unnoticeable doses of psilocybin, but I do not recommend anybody doing anything illegal, or for the sake of "enlightenment." I can only hope that when good medicine is discovered, it is used to help people that need it, whatever the societal or religious norms dictate.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[A.J.]

I think there is more life without exchange in dialogue than the other way around. Buddhism means walking the path of enlightenment and I don’t think that can be equated with endless debating and bickering and forming of opinions and concepts although discussions and exchanges of ideas certainly has its place. Shikantaza is not really meditation practice since we don’t spend the time we’re sitting neither pondering ideas and concepts, nor visualizing things with the goal of achieving something.

SatToday

That's fine, but I happen to disagree and consider that a spiritual form of cop-out that isn't quite healthy in it's own way.
Also, there are different forms of meditation and some forms are more formless than others, but they are still basically meditation.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Well said. The deeper you go into the philosophy, the further you can find yourself from practice (though not always of course).

Gassho,
Nick

Sat

Ironically, this sounds like a radical form of dualism to me. Also, this kind of thinking is no better than the anti-intellectual ignorance of a fundamentalist Christian.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I even think there is more value in discussing differences than similarities. When there is a difference in thought or feeling it provokes encounter and whether you feel disgruntled by it or not is your choice. If all that is happening is everyone is echoing everyone else then you may just as easily be talking with yourself- I prefer to encounter.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah