Moving from a selfish practice to practice for all

[A.J.]

Yes, we practice to rescue the sentient beings, not merely for ourselves. To rescue the sentient beings in an ultimate sense is to help them realize how to be free of the "Dukkha" which they are creating between their own ears.

The way to free the sentient beings is to show them that there never were any "sentient beings" in need of saving from the beginingless-beginning, nor anything lacking. except for the self-created sense of separate "self," the self-created measures of division and lack, and self-created frictions and disappointments of "Dukkha" which the separate self creates between its own ears.

Arhats can do what arhats do, but Bodhisattvas practice to liberate the sentient beings.

Gassho, J

STLah

To show anyone anything don't you have to know it yourself? Doesn't even that show some connection between liberation of the person showing and the shown? It's funny to me here that everything is part of interdependent co-arising... except for dukkha... that's an isolated phenomena in the head.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

As to the difference between "Dukkha" and physical harm or revulsion, I stumbled on a truly stomach turning story yesterday about the Korean Master, Wonhyo, more than our "pooh and peaches":

VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED for the SENSITIVE



The body vomits, this is natural. A mental and physical revulsion is felt, this is natural.

However, one can so come to accept and flow with this experience ... drinking when drinking, being mistaken when mistaken, thinking it a gourd when thinking it a gourd, just vomiting when vomiting, just feeling revulsion when feeling revulsion ... that there is no Dukkha.

Perhaps you think that a fully enlightened Buddha would neither vomit nor feel revulsion?

Okay, it is noon ... I'm off to lunch.

Gassho, J

STlah

PS - In fact, when I was in India, I encountered some Shavist holy men who train themselves to do just that ... but I don't think that one needs to be so in order to escape Samsara. That is the kind of extreme which, it is said, the ascetic Buddha rejected.

https://youtu.be/9xsnsEYYK7c

Yeah, gross. I accept that shit exists but don't need to eat it because of non-duality. There is still conventional duality... enjoy your poohless peaches

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

As to the difference between "Dukkha" and physical harm or revulsion, I stumbled on a truly stomach turning story yesterday about the Korean Master, Wonhyo, more than our "pooh and peaches":

VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED for the SENSITIVE



The body vomits, this is natural. A mental and physical revulsion is felt, this is natural.

However, one can so come to accept and flow with this experience ... drinking when drinking, being mistaken when mistaken, thinking it a gourd when thinking it a gourd, just vomiting when vomiting, just feeling revulsion when feeling revulsion ... that there is no Dukkha.

Perhaps you think that a fully enlightened Buddha would neither vomit nor feel revulsion?

Okay, it is noon ... I'm off to lunch.

Gassho, J

STlah

PS - In fact, when I was in India, I encountered some Shavist holy men who train themselves to do just that ... but I don't think that one needs to be so in order to escape Samsara. That is the kind of extreme which, it is said, the ascetic Buddha rejected.

https://youtu.be/9xsnsEYYK7c

I don't think a fully enlightened Buddha wouldn't vomit or feel revulsion. I think that is what people sound like they are promoting some of the time though when talking about being totally beyond craving and aversion. That's not my bag because I'm happy to accept the conventional parameters of human life along with a more ultimate view.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

To show anyone anything don't you have to know it yourself? Doesn't even that show some connection between liberation of the person showing and the shown?

Oh, yes, the guide must know it to show it, but that does not mean that the teacher can do the "heavy lifting" for the student. The teacher can help guide the student, but the student must realize the lesson of "self" for herself between her own ears.

It's funny to me here that everything is part of interdependent co-arising... except for dukkha... that's an isolated phenomena in the head.

Oh no, Dukkha is part of interdependent co-arising, as are all phenomena. That does not mean that it is not primarily personal. For example, the sun and moon, all other creatures, history and every blade of grass, every thing, being or moment of the whole universe gathers together in some ways, directly and indirectly, to cause you to have a heart beating in your chest and a brain between your ears. This is true. Nonetheless, my heart beating in my body does not cause your blood to pump in your body ... your heart must do its own beating, and your liberation from Dukkha must be done by you in the end.

I don't think a fully enlightened Buddha wouldn't vomit or feel revulsion. I think that is what people sound like they are promoting some of the time though when talking about being totally beyond craving and aversion. That's not my bag because I'm happy to accept the conventional parameters of human life along with a more ultimate view.

Well, I happen to think that a "fully enlightened Buddha" is going to turn blue in the face and die if I cut off his oxygen, that he will tumble over in pain and nausea if he gets hit in the nuts (assuming a Buddha has those ... some people debate that), and that certain situations or actions, somehow to some degree if extreme enough, will cause him to feel nausea and revulsion because it is hard wired into the animal brain (it may not be drinking from a skull, but something will cross the line of disgust even for a buddha). So long as the buddha had a human body, he cannot avoid these facts. In any case, were a buddha so removed from the human conditions that he felt no reaction at all, that would not be a "buddha" that I would care to follow.

But what we can do in this life, say the Zen and other Mahayana masters, is be free even when bound ... for example, we can drink from a skull and be disgusted, all while realizing that "life and death" are just a dream, and there was never any death or skull all along. Thus we vomit and roll on the floor in pain, yet there is no "sentient being" to do so from the startless start.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Oh, yes, the guide must know it to show it, but that does not mean that the teacher can do the "heavy lifting" for the student. The teacher can help guide the student, but the student must realize the lesson of "self" for herself between her own ears.



Oh no, Dukkha is part of interdependent co-arising, as are all phenomena. That does not mean that it is not primarily personal. For example, the sun and moon, all other creatures, history and every blade of grass, every thing, being or moment of the whole universe gathers together in some ways, directly and indirectly, to cause you to have a heart beating in your chest and a brain between your ears. This is true. Nonetheless, my heart beating in my body does not cause your blood to pump in your body ... your heart must do its own beating, and your liberation from Dukkha must be done by you in the end.



Well, I happen to think that a "fully enlightened Buddha" is going to turn blue in the face and die if I cut off his oxygen, that he will tumble over in pain and nausea if he gets hit in the nuts (assuming a Buddha has those ... some people debate that), and that certain situations or actions, somehow to some degree if extreme enough, will cause him to feel nausea and revulsion because it is hard wired into the animal brain (it may not be drinking from a skull, but something will cross the line of disgust even for a buddha). So long as the buddha had a human body, he cannot avoid these facts. In any case, were a buddha so removed from the human conditions that he felt no reaction at all, that would not be a "buddha" that I would care to follow.

But what we can do in this life, say the Zen and other Mahayana masters, is be free even when bound ... for example, we can drink from a skull and be disgusted, all while realizing that "life and death" are just a dream, and there was never any death or skull all along. Thus we vomit and roll on the floor in pain, yet there is no "sentient being" to do so from the startless start.

Gassho, J

STLah

I wouldn't expect that anyone could enlighten someone else anymore than they could pump someone else's blood for them but only mention the interlinked nature of existence because in my original comment on this particular thread I mentioned the possibility that personal liberation from dukkha could have positive ripple effects on those we are around (therefore solving some of the dichotomy between self-centered and selfless practice).

From there we have had a very interesting discussion about the exact definition of dukkha from your view, though I still see, with some modification, room for the idea that your own individual practice can have ripple effects (e.g. your example of showing the selfless nature of existence).

I just hope the Buddha wouldn't eat peaches with poo in them to prove a point for that would be a colossal waste of peaches.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I wouldn't expect that anyone could enlighten someone else anymore than they could pump someone else's blood for them but only mention the interlinked nature of existence because in my original comment on this particular thread I mentioned the possibility that personal liberation from dukkha could have positive ripple effects on those we are around (therefore solving some of the dichotomy between self-centered and selfless practice).

We agree there. Freedom from Dukkha ... being less bound by excess desire, anger, jealousy and other divided thinking ... will tend to make me act in ways less harmful to others. Furthermore, it may/should give rise to compassion, and a concern to help those others, including by helping them learn and practice Buddhism!

But what it cannot do is cause those others to be free of Dukkha until they realize so themselves between their own ears. A teacher can point them to the Zafu, a book, a teaching, some other technique ... but their self must free itself for itself.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

We agree there. Freedom from Dukkha ... being less bound by excess desire, anger, jealousy and other divided thinking ... will tend to make me act in ways less harmful to others. Furthermore, it may/should give rise to compassion, and a concern to help those others, including by helping them learn and practice Buddhism!

But what it cannot do is cause those others to be free of Dukkha until they realize so themselves between their own ears. A teacher can point them to the Zafu, a book, a teaching, some other technique ... but their self must free itself for itself.

Gassho, J

STLah

Yes. And now that I understand your particular use of the term dukkha (I have read many books and listened to many teachings that ascribed to it many shades of meaning) I know I agree with your thought as well.

There are ripple effects on the top of the ocean but everyone has to deal with the sea floor in themselves by themselves.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

The one exception I have pondered for a book I am writing, something that may come with future (not so far future) technology, would be machines and pharmaceuticals that cause people to realize "no self," to be free of Dukkha, when administered ... whether the people want to be so or not, to undergo the treatment or not.

In other words (I am ethically against this, by the way, just to be clear), can I make people free of Dukkha and "enlightened" against their will?

I believe that it could be technically possible, but in fact, what you still would be doing is changing what is happening between the ears of the individual by use of the machine or drug.

(By the way, the solution I proposed in my book to the ethical issue is to make the experience of liberation and freedom from Dukkha so nice for people that, on word of mouth, they will choose to undergo the procedures voluntarily, totally of their own free will, because it leaves them healthier and more content. They will willingly choose to undergo the change, without compulsion of any kind, for the same reason that people choose anything in the marketplace which makes them feel better, same as for a new pair of shoes at the mall or cosmetic surgery or an ice cream cone on a hot day. I also foresee them voluntarily choosing treatments which leave them more peaceful, more altruistic, less violent and the like for the same reasons ... the treatments leave them physically healthier and feeling better about themselves.)

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

The one exception I have pondered for a book I am writing, something that may come with future (not so far future) technology, would be machines and pharmaceuticals that cause people to realize "no self," to be free of Dukkha, when administered ... whether the people want to be so or not, to undergo the treatment or not.

In other words (I am ethically against this, by the way, just to be clear), can I make people free of Dukkha and "enlightened" against their will?

I believe that it could be technically possible, but in fact, what you still would be doing is changing what is happening between the ears of the individual by use of the machine or drug.

(By the way, the solution I proposed in my book to the ethical issue is to make the experience of liberation and freedom from Dukkha so nice for people that, on word of mouth, they will choose to undergo the procedures voluntarily, totally of their own free will, because it leaves them healthier and more content. They will willingly choose to undergo the change, without compulsion of any kind, for the same reason that people choose anything in the marketplace which makes them feel better, same as for a new pair of shoes at the mall or cosmetic surgery or an ice cream cone on a hot day. I also foresee them voluntarily choosing treatments which leave them more peaceful, more altruistic, less violent and the like for the same reasons ... the treatments leave them physically healthier and feeling better about themselves.)

Gassho, J

STLah

Psychedelics probably wouldn't quite fit into the kind of situation you're talking about, yet when the right causes and conditions are in place the seeker and the trip certainly can become one in a sort of entheogenic satori. One way in which this can be productive (and not just something that happened) is in reflecting on what was different in the moment of release, such as, giving up control, not looping around the default network of habit-force thoughts, recognizing "big mind", etc. The problem of integrating and enacting such insights in that case seems to me to be similar whether it is realized in a sober or not-so-sober way.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I'm note talking about psychedelics, but rather alterations to the DNA leading to changes in brain structure, nano-implants to regulate brain firings, chemical regulation of our most harmful addictions, damaging emotions and destructive drives, all to reduce our tendencies toward violence, to make us more charitable and empathetic, less generally selfish, and to soften the brain created borders of the "self/other" divide and the like.

Anyway, we are way off topic here ... You will just have to wait and someday read in the future my book about all this called: "ZEN of the FUTURE!"

I am generally against psychedelics (although I understand that people may experiment at certain times in life). Psychedelics do more harm than good. Zen practice is a day by day integration of wisdom and insight into our life, and some quick "trips" don't do that ... and may lead us down totally the wrong paths too.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I'm note talking about psychedelics, but rather alterations to the DNA leading to changes in brain structure, nano-implants to regulate brain firings, chemical regulation of our most harmful addictions, damaging emotions and destructive drives, all to reduce our tendencies toward violence, to make us more charitable and empathetic, less generally selfish, and to soften the brain created borders of the "self/other" divide and the like.

Anyway, we are way off topic here ... You will just have to wait and someday read in the future my book about all this called: "ZEN of the FUTURE!"

I am generally against psychedelics (although I understand that people may experiment at certain times in life). Psychedelics do more harm than good. Zen practice is a day by day integration of wisdom and insight into our life, and some quick "trips" don't do that ... and may lead us down totally the wrong paths too.

Gassho, J

STLah

"Zen of the Future" sounds truly Sci-fi, which is to say, a possible future for all we know.
I understand some people have had harm from entheogens, nevertheless my experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. Back in my days of having a time of that sort of thing I was convinced of their being some redeeming value there because of the widespread use of these kinds of plants across varied lands by many cultures.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

"Zen of the Future" sounds truly Sci-fi, which is to say, a possible future for all we know.
I understand some people have had harm from entheogens, nevertheless my experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. Back in my days of having a time of that sort of thing I was convinced of their being some redeeming value there because of the widespread use of these kinds of plants across varied lands by many cultures.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Generally, they are disfavored in Zen Buddhism (there are a few teachers who seem to make exceptions). Certainly, they are not to be taken during Zazen or other times of practice.

Experiences with such substances can demonstrate to us much about how the mind creates realities, but it is not Zen practice. It is no more Zen practice than taking such substances will turn one into an airplane pilot, and most especially, we do not want to be taking them while piloting a plane. So, they are certainly not part of our practice in this Sangha.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Generally, they are disfavored in Zen Buddhism (there are a few teachers who seem to make exceptions). Certainly, they are not to be taken during Zazen or other times of practice.

Experiences with such substances can demonstrate to us much about how the mind creates realities, but it is not Zen practice. It is no more Zen practice than taking such substances will turn one into an airplane pilot, and most especially, we do not want to be taking them while piloting a plane. So, they are certainly not part of our practice in this Sangha.

Gassho, J

STLah

Oh it's definitely not Zen practice although it was the practice of a large portion of our human ancestors before the advent of priestly religions. If there are correspondences between the two it is only inasmuch as there can be more than one way to a similar point of view.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Anyway, enough chit chat.

Time to chop some wood and fetch water.

Thanks for the interesting little conversation, AJ.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

Touched by below post by Horin in the other thread on Rapturous samadhi



My practice is selfish (judging my zazen on focus, worrying if it is "working", no compassion in real life, would never give away my zazen "progress" to others) for my own liberation despite all vows I say daily. What tips do others have for really being a selfless student and not minding taking the last place in the queue

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I think that shining awareness onto something has a great potential to transform it. On a daily basis I try to pay attention whenever I become egoistic, cling to something or put defenses on, and if I'm successful at noticing it I ask myself : how can I be more generous in this situation. This opening up can be something very small, like deciding to give away your time and attention to someone when all you want to do is to shut off and scroll down the Facebook. The often we have those awareness and tiny "generosity" moments the more we change and become more open to other scientent beings.
I guess.
Gassho
Sat