Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth
Hi John,
First off, not only are you not questioning the "general view" (I do not believe there is one here on this issue), but nothing wrong with "questioning" anything. Never feel you can't speak and discuss something from your heart around here.
Next, I do not think that there is any "official" view on these beliefs in the 'Western Zen world' (let alone in the wider Zen Buddhist world including Asian countries), and views and explanations currently are very much across the board from teacher to teacher. In other words, there is no one view on this now, and one can find many Zen teachers ... East and West ... with a rather literal view. Admittedly, in centuries past (and in Asian countries now), there have probably been many more Zen folks (not to mention other Buddhists) who hold what I would term a quite "literal" view than now to be found in the 20th and 21st Century West. But even the Westerners are quite a mixed bag.
A recent informal survey I witnessed among the members of the "Zen teachers association" in the US to which I belong seemed to show that the majority of folks believe that life (how can I phrase this?) continues on in some way after this body dies (I think so too), although the details of that are not very specific and, again, vary very much in the eye of the beholder. How can I say this? I believe most Western teachers (me too) would say "some aspect continues".
What that "aspect" is though ... opinions start to vary.
Dogen seemed very much to believe in some literal and traditional form of rebirth (this week's reading in Zuimonki shows that), and I would say most Chinese, Korean and Japanese Zen teachers have in the past, and in a very literal and traditional fashion. Certainly, it is probably the mainstream view in most of Asian Buddhism (including but not limited to the Zen schools) even now. Over time, the Zen emphasis on "living in this moment, here and now" tended to make the question of rebirth less important in the Zen schools compared to traditional Buddhism, which was centered on the doctrine of gradual progress ... life after life ... to becoming a Buddha. This was especially true as Zen came to non-Asian countries. But, still, a belief in a more literal "rebirth" process remains present among Asian and non-Asian Zen teachers too.
As I said, I also can be included among those folks who do not think we happened to pop up alive in the middle of time and space as a meaningless cosmic hick-up (it seems too ridiculous for us to be here by mere happenstance)... and I do not think that the death of this body is quite the end of the story (In fact, the name of this place ... Treeleaf ... derives from the image that the life of a Tree continues after the separate-yet-not-separate single leaves ... you and me ... fall away season by season). However, I do not feel the need to fill in too many of the details of the mechanics of that process, try merely to be a decent chap here and now, and trust the universe to take us where it will (it will anyway).
So, the question is not so important to my particular practice.
For those new around here, let me mention that we discussed Karma and Rebirth in greater detail here:
viewtopic.php?p=17953#p17953
and here
viewtopic.php?p=20191#p20191
The IZF had a thread on this issue too, with many opinions. Most members, however, tend to be Western modernists ... not literalists ... even those who said that some belief in rebirth in necessary to Buddhist practice.
http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... 964#p12964
We can continue to discuss this topic ... either in this life, or the next! 8)
Gassho, Jundo
Originally posted by jrh001
First off, not only are you not questioning the "general view" (I do not believe there is one here on this issue), but nothing wrong with "questioning" anything. Never feel you can't speak and discuss something from your heart around here.
Next, I do not think that there is any "official" view on these beliefs in the 'Western Zen world' (let alone in the wider Zen Buddhist world including Asian countries), and views and explanations currently are very much across the board from teacher to teacher. In other words, there is no one view on this now, and one can find many Zen teachers ... East and West ... with a rather literal view. Admittedly, in centuries past (and in Asian countries now), there have probably been many more Zen folks (not to mention other Buddhists) who hold what I would term a quite "literal" view than now to be found in the 20th and 21st Century West. But even the Westerners are quite a mixed bag.
A recent informal survey I witnessed among the members of the "Zen teachers association" in the US to which I belong seemed to show that the majority of folks believe that life (how can I phrase this?) continues on in some way after this body dies (I think so too), although the details of that are not very specific and, again, vary very much in the eye of the beholder. How can I say this? I believe most Western teachers (me too) would say "some aspect continues".
What that "aspect" is though ... opinions start to vary.
Dogen seemed very much to believe in some literal and traditional form of rebirth (this week's reading in Zuimonki shows that), and I would say most Chinese, Korean and Japanese Zen teachers have in the past, and in a very literal and traditional fashion. Certainly, it is probably the mainstream view in most of Asian Buddhism (including but not limited to the Zen schools) even now. Over time, the Zen emphasis on "living in this moment, here and now" tended to make the question of rebirth less important in the Zen schools compared to traditional Buddhism, which was centered on the doctrine of gradual progress ... life after life ... to becoming a Buddha. This was especially true as Zen came to non-Asian countries. But, still, a belief in a more literal "rebirth" process remains present among Asian and non-Asian Zen teachers too.
As I said, I also can be included among those folks who do not think we happened to pop up alive in the middle of time and space as a meaningless cosmic hick-up (it seems too ridiculous for us to be here by mere happenstance)... and I do not think that the death of this body is quite the end of the story (In fact, the name of this place ... Treeleaf ... derives from the image that the life of a Tree continues after the separate-yet-not-separate single leaves ... you and me ... fall away season by season). However, I do not feel the need to fill in too many of the details of the mechanics of that process, try merely to be a decent chap here and now, and trust the universe to take us where it will (it will anyway).
So, the question is not so important to my particular practice.
For those new around here, let me mention that we discussed Karma and Rebirth in greater detail here:
viewtopic.php?p=17953#p17953
and here
viewtopic.php?p=20191#p20191
The IZF had a thread on this issue too, with many opinions. Most members, however, tend to be Western modernists ... not literalists ... even those who said that some belief in rebirth in necessary to Buddhist practice.
http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... 964#p12964
We can continue to discuss this topic ... either in this life, or the next! 8)
Gassho, Jundo
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