Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

[frjames]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Bansho wrote:
I think all we can know with some degree of certainty is that each moment comes and goes. This present life unfolds in this present life.

Jundo wrote:
And even should there be no Rebirth, Heaven or such, it is a gentle and rich way to live this life, in this world, here and now.

And therein lies the beauty of Zen practice: to be at this present life as it unfolds...gently and richly...here and now.

When we sit, we bring with us the whole universe and I am one with you, you with me.

As we sit then?

Fr. James

[jrh001]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Hi,

Here's an article from a non-Zen perspective that some might have seen;
Does Rebirth Make Sense? by Bhikkhu Bodhi

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_46.html

I found that the "stream of consciousness" idea made sense (to me) in terms of how things happen. Material things come from somewhere and go somewhere. Consciousness comes from somewhere and goes somewhere.

JohnH

PS: The material side was wonderfully described a while ago by Chugai:
(http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewto...p=20852#p20852).

[Bansho]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Hi,

And therein lies the beauty of Zen practice: to be at this present life as it unfolds...gently and richly...here and now.

When we sit, we bring with us the whole universe and I am one with you, you with me.

As we sit then?

Fr. James

Lovely, thanks very much. Yes, lets sit.

Gassho
Bansho

[Bansho]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Hi John,

Here's an article from a non-Zen perspective that some might have seen;
Does Rebirth Make Sense? by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_46.html

I found that the "stream of consciousness" idea made sense (to me) in terms of how things happen. Material things come from somewhere and go somewhere. Consciousness comes from somewhere and goes somewhere.

Interesting article. It's worth noting, however, that the whole "stream of consciousness" concept is not only a 'non-Zen perspective', but also non-Madhyamika, non-Yogacara, non-Mahayana, and - curiously enough, given the fact that Bikkhu Bodhi is a Theravadin monk - also a non-Theravadin perspective. To my knowledge, the first references to the concept in a Buddhist context were in the 7th/8th centrury C.E. in Tibet, i.e. it's a Vajrayana concept.

Here's my translation of a statement from a highly regarded fellow Soto practitioner (Sogen) here in Germany on this subject:

'Reincarnation' - more specifically, the tendency towards an infinitely repeated incarnation of an individual(!) mental continuum or 'stream of consciousness' is not a general Buddhist teaching, as opposed to anatta/anatman. Personally, due to this ... irreconcilable contradiction, I would even go further and describe it as a non-Buddhist teaching which is taught by some Buddhists.

This [stream of consciousness] teaching is rather a Tibetan specialty which originated in northern India; it's earliest roots can be found ... in the Pramanavarttika of Dharmakirti (7th century C.E.) as well as in the Anuttara Yoga Tantra (whose origins are not prior to the 8th century C.E.). The Kagyupa (one of the four Tibetan Buddhist schools) like to refer to the Uttaratantra Shastra as well, which the future Buddha Maitreya is said to have personally dictated to Asanga. This is, of course, a blatant anachronism, when one compares it with the other texts of Asanga (born approx. 300 C.E.), the founder of the Yogacara school. This text was 'discovered' by Maitripa in the 11th century C.E.

The 'stream of consciousness' theory was therefore developed more than one thousand years after Buddha Shakyamuni and a half-millenium after Nagarjuna (the most prominent teacher of the Mahayana) - quite obviously as a result of strong Hindu influence. It was hardly accepted in the Buddism of the Far East (China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam) nor in the Theravada Buddhism of Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia (Burma, Thailand, [Laos], Cambodia). The concept of 'rebirth' found there is, as it is in the West, almost completely of a folkloristic nature, i.e. a part of the popular religion, not Buddhist doctrine. Apart from it's Hindu influence, to a large degree it can be traced back to pre-Buddhist ancestor worship.

http://www.dharma.de/dbu/forum/index.ph ... 6899#71447

Just to be clear: references to 'rebirth' do indeed appear throughout the canonical texts, but not are not to be construed as an individual 'stream of consciousness' or any other such fixed, unchangeable entity (i.e. atman) which is propagated through successive incarnations. According to those canonical texts, it is not some individual 'self' which is propagated, but rather the results of karma.

Fortunately, there's no need to speculate on all this in order to be able to uphold our Practice here and now. If this is the only life I have, I can't think of a better way to spend it than to put the Buddhadharma to practice. And if there should be something else beyond it - whatever that may be - I'll put the Buddhadharma to practice then as well, should "I" have any say in the matter.

My apologies if I've bombarded you with more information than you cared to hear.

Gassho
Bansho

[Jundo]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Hi,

Here's an article from a non-Zen perspective that some might have seen;
Does Rebirth Make Sense? by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...-essay_46.html

Hi,

In my view ... such a system of rebirth (like the Judeo-Christian vision of Heaven and Hell) may exist ... or it may not (my own beliefs and suspicions about their literal existence ... or lack thereof ... aside). In any case, it need not. Further, I tend to think that an overly mechanical explication of its workings, such as contained in the cited article, is primarily a product of human supposition and imagination. Even if the Buddha believed it, that does not make it so.

The teaching of rebirth ... is so closely bound to a host of other doctrines that to remove it would virtually reduce the Dhamma to tatters.

... This is simply not the case. Other doctrines can stand quite on their own without the imposition of such a system.

It need not be central to Buddhist practice.

Gassho, J

[Tobiishi]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

gassho

The world, and the minds with which we are equipped to perceive the world, are not structured in such a way that we can know what becomes of us at death. Therefore it seems simplest to be content with not knowing.

gassho
tobiishi

[frjames]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Jundo wrote:
such a system of rebirth (like the Judeo-Christian vision of Heaven and Hell)

I personally think we eventually end up in the heavenly realm and hell is nearly empty.

Fr. James

[disastermouse]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

We love big daddies, big teachers gurus or super heroes. We treasure they promises, prophecies. We would like to believe in a better life, a better world for a transformed and better self. Hope. Don t we get all caught sometimes in its dazzling web? We often go from hope to despair and distress. The anger kicks in then. Well, you know really well how it works, don t you?

Why? If I may say, hope is as poisonous as fear. It is insane. It just takes us away from the taste as-it-is of each moment. As Jundo said, we don t mind about after life after death, we mind about life before death, life and death seen as one, now.

Thank you for posting this. Whenever I try to explain Buddhism to people who are not Buddhist, they inevitably tell me that it seems like a very hopeless religion (no permanent heaven, no soul, etc) - and then we get into 'hope as a problem'....they just lose all ability to relate. "How can you live with no hope for the future?", they ask.

Gassho.

Chet

[Jinho]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Thank you for posting this. Whenever I try to explain Buddhism to people who are not Buddhist, they inevitably tell me that it seems like a very hopeless religion (no permanent heaven, no soul, etc) - and then we get into 'hope as a problem'....they just lose all ability to relate. "How can you live with no hope for the future?", they ask.

Gassho.

Chet

...because I have This Moment. and This Moment is all there is. Right here, Right now.

This does not mean that past moments did not happen, and the effect of all past moments is right here, right now. Even so, there is still only This Moment. But to know what is this This Moment is the big question.

thank you for your time,
gassho
Jinho

[will]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Taigu

Hope.

Yes. We can do away with hope. What's the use? However, there is sadness, confusion, and regret in the world; this we know.

I'm sure we can see the good in someone, no matter how dire they may be. That is not hope, but life.

Gassho

[disastermouse]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Thank you for posting this. Whenever I try to explain Buddhism to people who are not Buddhist, they inevitably tell me that it seems like a very hopeless religion (no permanent heaven, no soul, etc) - and then we get into 'hope as a problem'....they just lose all ability to relate. "How can you live with no hope for the future?", they ask.

Gassho.

Chet

...because I have This Moment. and This Moment is all there is. Right here, Right now.

This does not mean that past moments did not happen, and the effect of all past moments is right here, right now. Even so, there is still only This Moment. But to know what is this This Moment is the big question.

thank you for your time,
gassho
Jinho

I understand the answer - I simply cannot get others to understand it.

Not that I have to...

Yes, even the past is just a (faulty) recording taking place in THIS moment.

Chet

[Eika]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Great Bob Hope story in the news in 2003:

Daughter Linda Hope said Monday that her father, who died Sunday at age 100, was recently asked by wife Dolores where he wanted to be buried and the wisecracking entertainer responded, "Surprise me."

Like most everything in life, our expectations are rarely accurate. Death, too, will be a surprise.

Peace,
Bill

[jrh001]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

In my view ... such a system of rebirth (like the Judeo-Christian vision of Heaven and Hell) may exist ... or it may not (my own beliefs and suspicions about their literal existence ... or lack thereof ... aside). In any case, it need not. Further, I tend to think that an overly mechanical explication of its workings, such as contained in the cited article, is primarily a product of human supposition and imagination. Even if the Buddha believed it, that does not make it so.
...
Other doctrines can stand quite on their own without the imposition of such a system.

It need not be central to Buddhist practice.

Gassho, J

Hi Jundo,

Thanks for your reply. I realise that you do not believe in literal rebirth (and also, I suppose, the idea of individual karma, since my understanding is that both are closely related).

In terms of the Zen lineage, do you know when those original literal beliefs were dropped or modified? (Not sure if 'dropped or modified' are the correct terms - what I mean is when less emphasis was placed on those beliefs). Was it at/before Dogen's time? Or is it recent?

Thanks too to Bansho for your response, I do care to know more about the history of these ideas.

(If BTW, I seem to be questioning the generally-accepted Treeleaf view, I hope that readers will understand that the comments or questions are never meant as a challenge, I'm just trying to explore and understand the ideas... as well as sitting...)

gassho,

JohnH :?

[disastermouse]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

In my view ... such a system of rebirth (like the Judeo-Christian vision of Heaven and Hell) may exist ... or it may not (my own beliefs and suspicions about their literal existence ... or lack thereof ... aside). In any case, it need not. Further, I tend to think that an overly mechanical explication of its workings, such as contained in the cited article, is primarily a product of human supposition and imagination. Even if the Buddha believed it, that does not make it so.
...
Other doctrines can stand quite on their own without the imposition of such a system.

It need not be central to Buddhist practice.

Gassho, J

Hi Jundo,

Thanks for your reply. I realise that you do not believe in literal rebirth (and also, I suppose, the idea of individual karma, since my understanding is that both are closely related).

In terms of the Zen lineage, do you know when those original literal beliefs were dropped or modified? (Not sure if 'dropped or modified' are the correct terms - what I mean is when less emphasis was placed on those beliefs). Was it at/before Dogen's time? Or is it recent?

Thanks too to Bansho for your response, I do care to know more about the history of these ideas.

(If BTW, I seem to be questioning the generally-accepted Treeleaf view, I hope that readers will understand that the comments or questions are never meant as a challenge, I'm just trying to explore and understand the ideas... as well as sitting...)

gassho,

JohnH :?

What would be wrong with a challenge?

Chet

[will]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

jrh001
(If BTW, I seem to be questioning the generally-accepted Treeleaf view, I hope that readers will understand that the comments or questions are never meant as a challenge, I'm just trying to explore and understand the ideas... as well as sitting...)

Forgeddaboudit.

Gassho _/_

W