Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

[clyde]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

A skeptic walks up to a Zen master and asks: “Is there life after death?”
“How should I know?” the master replied.
“But you’re a Zen master!”
“Yes,” the Zen master says, “but not a dead one.”

ZEN MONDO

[Hans]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Hello Folks,


please excuse my ignorance, just in case someone already posted this link before:


http://www.tricycle.com/feature/3857-1.html?page=0%2C0

Stephen Batchelor and Robert Thurman have a friendly yet nevertheless challenging discussion regarding reincarnation and related topics. Since this is one of the topics that gives beginners and old time fools a headache alike, I though I should share this discussion with you. I personally have no issues with the whole notion of literal vs. metaphorical reincarnation (though I do have a whole waggonload full of useless opinions!) but since I enjoyed reading it I thought you might enjoy it too.

Gassho,

Mongen

[AlanLa]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

I am confused.
If there is no self, then who exactly is reborn/reincarnated/etc.?
Someone somewhere most certainly has asked this question in relation to this discussion, right? So what is the answer?
I guess it's a koan. I mean, doesn't the no-self concept cancel out the rebirth concept? And doesn't that just leave the experience of this life lived fully here and now action minus the confusing and contradictory concepts?
Or am I missing something here? If so, please enlighten me.
But in the mean time, while this may be a nice toy to play with, I got water to chop and wood to fetch.

[Jundo]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

I am confused.
If there is no self, then who exactly is reborn/reincarnated/etc.?
Someone somewhere most certainly has asked this question in relation to this discussion, right? So what is the answer?
I guess it's a koan. I mean, doesn't the no-self concept cancel out the rebirth concept? And doesn't that just leave the experience of this life lived fully here and now action minus the confusing and contradictory concepts?
Or am I missing something here? If so, please enlighten me.
But in the mean time, while this may be a nice toy to play with, I got water to chop and wood to fetch.

Hi Alan,

The question of "rebirth" is reborn from time to time in our forum.

Before tackling your main question, allow me to point folks back to this other thread which tackled the subject more generally ...

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI
viewtopic.php?p=17953#p17953

My basic position was summarized there as follows ...

Ideas of Karmic Rebirth have been just as present throughout the history of Ch'an/Zen Buddhism as well. It varied from teacher to teacher, but there is no reason to believe that Zen Buddhists of old believed less in Karmic Rebirth than other Buddhists. HOWEVER, the emphasis in Zen Buddhism on "living in this life, in the present moment" quickly began to make the question less important to Zen Practitioners. Be a good human being here and now, seek to do no harm now in this life ... and what happens after this life will take care of itself.

Based thereon, many modern teachers (me included ... and may I burn in a hot Buddhist hell if wrong) do not find the question so important or central to Buddhist Practice.

Now, don't get me wrong: I believe that our actions have effects, and I believe that we create "heavens" and "hells". I see people create "hells" within themselves all the time, and for those around them, by their acts of greed, anger and ignorance. .I see people who live in this world as "Hungry Ghosts", never satisfied. I also believe that we are reborn moment by moment by moment, so in that way ... we are constantly reborn, always changing (the "Jundo" who began writing this essay is not the same "Jundo" who will finish it). Futhermore, I believe that our actions will continue to have effects in this world long after this body is in its grave ... like ripples in a stream that will continue on endlessly.

But what about those future lives, heavens and hells? Will I be reborn as an Asura or a cocker spaniel?

My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Now, on to your question of "rebirth" vs. "reincarnation" ...

I have recently come across a few opinions by commentators that the real difference is semantic. Buddhist thinkers were interested in keeping the traditional Indian system of Karmic effects into future lives while somehow rectifying that with the Buddha's doctrine of "no self".

The reason that this is said to be a system of "rebirth", and not "reincarnation", is based primarily on the very fine distinction that the Buddha denied an eternal "self" or "soul" that would pass on from life to life. Buddhist philosophers have struggled for generations, often bending over backwards, thus to explain how there can be a "you" which is reborn when there is no "you" ...

Here are a couple of modern attempts, one from the London Buddhist Vihara ...

The non-existence of a permanent soul or spirit that reincarnates from one life to another is fundamental to the Buddha’s teachings. A permanent soul cannot exist in the ever-changing, interdependent process of mind and matter which constitutes a living being. However, the momentum of accumulated kamma results in a new existence. The individual so born is neither the same nor different from the previous being. Buddhism, therefore, describes this process as ‘rebecoming’ or ‘rebirth’ in preference to reincarnation which implies a resurrection of the same entity. It is the force of one’s accumulated kamma which drives life onward from one existence to another. Only an enlightened being (arahant) creates no more kamma.
http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/qa/qa_kamma.htm


The modern Theravada scholar Walpola Rahulan, in his book What the Buddha Taught (1959), asked,

"If we can understand that in this life we can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self or Soul, why can't we understand that those forces themselves can continue without a Self or Soul behind them after the non-functioning of the body?

"When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. ... Physical and mental energies which constitute the so-called being have within themselves the power to take a new form, and grow gradually and gather force to the full."

Paul Williams has this explanation of the "rebirth" mechanism in a book I mentioned yesterday, "Buddhist Thought" Please read from the middle of page 69 (where it says "The Buddha did not hold that ... ") through page 70 here ... Notice how he also comments that later Buddhists added various elaborations to the system, filling in all manner of details. However, the basic process is as follows:

http://books.google.com/books?id=IDgZXl ... t&resnum=1

I hope that helps. Now, back to wood chopping and water fetching.

Gassho, Jundo

[AlanLa]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Thanks Jundo. I get confused by this topic every time it comes up, so I finally decided to finally ask the questions that bug me about it. I need to reread all that bent over backwards logic in a bent over backwards position for it to make more sense. I will tackle it again, but my first impression is that there is a strong attachment to a concept here. Would Buddhism fall down if we dropped it? I think not, but who am I? and who cares what this non-I thinks? Apparently this dropping, or de-emphasis on it, is happening somewhat, but there are thousands of years of inertia behind that concept. Karma? I dunno. I'm curious at the same time unattached to the idea, seeing no reason for all that attachment.

Fetching and carrying...

[AlanLa]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Yet to tackle the Paul Williams piece again, but in the meantime how's this?

Since we are all One (beyond one), then every time a baby is born I am (everyone is) also reborn. My/everyone's karma affects that/my/everyone's rebirth, and so on...

This can't be that simple. Can it?

[Jundo]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Yet to tackle the Paul Williams piece again, but in the meantime how's this?

Since we are all One (beyond one), then every time a baby is born I am (everyone is) also reborn. My/everyone's karma affects that/my/everyone's rebirth, and so on...

This can't be that simple. Can it?

Hi Alan,

Well, lets keep in mind that we are just talking about ideas now.

And, yes, by one view of Reality (remember, in our Zen perspectives, we always view many many simultaneously true perspectives on Reality, each true in its way ... some seemingly contradictory) every time a baby, or a blade of grass, a single ant or whole ant hill, or a distant star or entire galaxy is born ... in the future, past or right this instant ... you are/were/will be born and reborn.

And your every volitional action sweeps out and has effects on all ... like ripples on a stream moving outward in many directions ...

I like sometimes this image of who we really are (even though we cannot usually experience this apart from Zazen) ... and how what happens to one finger really has effect on all, one hand ... our Zen practice helps us to realize this too ...



However, the traditional image of Karma and rebirth in Buddhism is a rather different (simultaneously true) perspective ... as Paul Williams describes it in the books pages I mentioned, for example ... and is more like separate streams of tumbling dominoes .... all connected, yet each separate and heading in different lines ... thus, there is no "self", just each our own particular line of cause/effect ...





So, for example, AlanLa Age 6 is not the same AlanLa as AlanLa age 50 ... just the cause/effect sequence of momentary tumbling dominoes (which, in ignorance, causes AlanLa to actually think there is as "AlanLa") ... and the same for when AlanLa becomes JudyLa in the next life ... In this image, there is no "soul" or "self" that travels on ... just Alan's line of tumbling cause/effect which is separate from, for example, Jundo's tumbling line of cause/effect.

(hey, don't blame me for this idea ... I am just explaining the traditional model 8) )

And to make it even more complicated, it has been argued (by people who argue such things) that thus AlanLa might have several simultaneously incarnate rebirths from a single line of tumbling dominoes .... in other words, you will not necessarily be 'reborn' as just one person at one time ...

And what do I have to say about all this ...

I will let the dominoes fall where they may, try to lead a harmless and healthful life right this moment ... for myself and others (not two).

As Taegu said so well on another Forum thread tumbling along this week parallel to this one ...

At the same time just washing our bowl, or doing the dishes, is a complete and perfect expression of this understanding. Or...maybe neither nor :lol:

viewtopic.php?p=25117#p25117

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

The bottom line is...

Correct actions in each moment are also the correct actions for mitigating rebirth in the best possible way. That is to say, these purposes are in line. One could also argue that only by being intimately involved with this moment and it's 'correct action' can karmically advantageous action even be possible.

IMHO.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

My Sunday school teachers did not like when I asked these kind of questions, so I really appreciate how they are tolerated and even welcomed here. Having them answered is a big plus, too. Also on that note, I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into these answers, Jundo.

OK, so going with the rebirth idea as presented here, this means that Buddha is constantly being reborn all around us, right? Yet I also hear that Buddha was able to cease the rebirth process. Which is it? Or is this one of those holding two apparently opposed ideas at the same time? Or is it more like what you wrote here:

In the later Mahayana, and especially in the Zen teachings, "freedom from rebirth" came to be tasted as something which can occur even right amid birth and death ... nirvana (nibbana) is samsara, samsara precisely nirvana. When viewed in this way, "birth and death" are originally free of "birth and death" ... and birth is birthless death, death just deathless birth.

I think I have more, but my head hurts.

[Martin]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Alan

You articulated many of my questions / doubts / confusions on this subject perfectly, thank you.

If there's no soul nor even an unchanging essence of me, if what I experience as "me" is the coming together of these causes of these sensations at this moment in time, how can "I" be reborn? How can this moment be reborn, save in the sense that every moment is a rebirth of a new moment, each made from the causes and effects of the last one, intimately linked to it but different?

Ouch. My head hurts too when I stray into this territory.

Gassho

Martin

[disastermouse]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Alan

You articulated many of my questions / doubts / confusions on this subject perfectly, thank you.

If there's no soul nor even an unchanging essence of me, if what I experience as "me" is the coming together of these causes of these sensations at this moment in time, how can "I" be reborn? How can this moment be reborn, save in the sense that every moment is a rebirth of a new moment, each made from the causes and effects of the last one, intimately linked to it but different?

Ouch. My head hurts too when I stray into this territory.

Gassho

Martin

It's easy to say 'there is no "me"' - but then, on a very fundamental level, we don't really believe that. It's why logical materialist types look askance at you when you start out with 'no self' if they have no meditative experience. On one level, there very much seems to be a self - and let's not forget that this appearance of self is very useful. In and of itself, it is not a mistake. There's a reason that it's become a universal human condition to believe in this self. The problem is that this appearance of self is not the whole story - not by a long shot. It's not even the fundamental, most true story.

There's a quote or story I read somewhere..a Zen student had asked his teacher this question, "If there is no 'I', what is reborn?" The teacher answered, 'Your delusion'. There's a sort of shocking bluntness to this answer, as cutting through delusion is the 'solution' to both suffering and rebirth. No delusion, no self, no rebirth.

The self is just a story, and it is we who perpetuate that story.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Alan

You articulated many of my questions / doubts / confusions on this subject perfectly, thank you.

If there's no soul nor even an unchanging essence of me, if what I experience as "me" is the coming together of these causes of these sensations at this moment in time, how can "I" be reborn? How can this moment be reborn, save in the sense that every moment is a rebirth of a new moment, each made from the causes and effects of the last one, intimately linked to it but different?

Ouch. My head hurts too when I stray into this territory.

Gassho

Martin

It's easy to say 'there is no "me"' - but then, on a very fundamental level, we don't really believe that. It's why logical materialist types look askance at you when you start out with 'no self' if they have no meditative experience.

Just a quick reminder that, although there is "no self" and you are a self-illusion ... that does not mean that there is no "self" (yes, both true at once). Self may be a fiction from one perspective, but it is a real fiction or "provisional truth" (who else is reading this?). Even as the Buddha rejected the self, he still got up each day to fill his begging bowl with food.

One thing that the Mahayana came to emphasize, especially though perspectives such as by Master Dogen, is that your "self" may be a fiction, and quite the trouble maker (and we must see through it, and catch that trouble maker's mischief) ... but all "selfs" are also jewels, each perfectly what they are ... perfectly imperfect jewels.

Do you see?

So, yes, we are dreams ... but they are our miraculous dreams of life ...

Something like that (written quickly, as this "fiction of a self" must catch a fictional train)

Gassho, Jundo

[frjames]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Hello all,

As a Catholic pastor, I struggle with the Buddhist concept of rebirth from time to time to time.

I've just finished reading Dosho Port's book Keep Me In Your Heart a While: The Haunting Zen of Dainin Katagiri. In a chapter on Karma and Rebirth, he began with this exchange between Katagiri Roshi and a student:

A student said, "Roshi, I've been thinking about rebirth for a long time and finally I've decided that I don't believe in it." Katagiri Roshi responded gently: "That's okay. Maybe next life you will."

Dosho Port ends his reflection of the subject by quoting the Wild Fox koan and then writes:

The Wild Fox koan is a call of the wild, beckoning us to broaden the limits of our capacity to allow for open-ended possibilities. When we grope for a fixed idea about any of the above questions, or about the precise effects of our own past karma, we meet manifold double-binds and are caught in sleeplessness, madness, and vexation brought on by conjecture about what is not to be conjectured about by one who is not interested in chasing his or her tail.

The koan leaves no other way through than to relax into the periphery along the hedge row where the scent of the wild fox, the scent of the subtle meaning of karma and rebirth, diffuses harmoniously with this very birth and death.

I think whether Christian or Buddhist, we all struggle to find out (or not find out) where this present life leads.

Bowing...

Fr. James.

[Bansho]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Hi Fr. James,

I think whether Christian or Buddhist, we all struggle to find out (or not find out) where this present life leads.

I think all we can know with some degree of certainty is that each moment comes and goes. This present life unfolds in this present life.

Gassho
Bansho

[Jundo]

Re: Split Thread: Afterlife/Rebirth

Hi Fr. James,

I think whether Christian or Buddhist, we all struggle to find out (or not find out) where this present life leads.

I think all we can know with some degree of certainty is that each moment comes and goes. This present life unfolds in this present life.

Gassho
Bansho

Yes, I like to think that ... if I act as a gentle person here and now, acting with kindness and avoiding harm ... it will do me well, and place me in good stead, to lead to a suitable "rebirth" (should there be such) or serve as a ticket to "Heaven" (should there be such).

And even should there be no Rebirth, Heaven or such, it is a gentle and rich way to live this life, in this world, here and now.

I like to think that, should there be a Heaven, and should Amida Buddha, King Yama, Brahma, St. Peter, Jehovah, Allah or who/whatever be running the show and standing at the Gates ... well, they will cut me some slack, let me pass through the door, for doing the (reasonably, let's face it) best that I knew to do. I meant no offense by not believing in each/all of you enough.

And if I am wrong about that, well, I just did about the (reasonably, let's face it) best I could do. :-) I will try to do better too.

Gassho, J