Enlightenment experience

[Kokuu]

If enlightenment could be defined by the phrase "that's not it.." then anyone who opens their mouth on this topic is way way off...

Me included.

There is way off and way off. Although we clearly cannot completely capture awakening in words, there have been pretty good attempts to point to it.

And less good attempts.

Even though every attempt will miss it in some way, that doesn't mean keeping totally schtum as the words of former and current teachers give us a feel of the territory.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Shinshou]

I am seeking insight- Today, while going about my day, I had what I would consider an enlightenment experience. I had a sudden understanding of life, death, permanence and impermanence, and the finality of things. It was very scary and fascinating at the same time, and the overwhelming part of the feeling left fairly quickly.

Sat today,
Adam

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk

I sure have - from knowing we are more than our bodies, telepathic-type experiences, visions that come true...but in the end, there's nothing to do but let it come, wash over you, and be gone. Then get up, sit, go to work, hug your family, and do some good in the world. What else is there?

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

[Jishin]

There is way off and way off. Although we clearly cannot completely capture awakening in words, there have been pretty good attempts to point to it.

And less good attempts.

Even though every attempt will miss it in some way, that doesn't mean keeping totally schtum as the words of former and current teachers give us a feel of the territory.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I am a fool for talking about it.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Tairin]

The video Jundo posted above “Mystical Experiences in Zen” is interesting. In it Brad provides a subtle but powerfully different definition of “discriminating” than I had been using as it relates to this practice. Brad’s definition of discriminating is basically “this thing” vs “that thing” vs “the other thing”. Totally makes sense to me. My definition of discriminating was more of the qualitative “this is good” “this is bad” sort of discrimination. That difference makes sense and clears up a number of readings so thank you Brad! A little light bulb went on as I was listening.

Sorry for all the extra sentences.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Choboku]

I am a fool for talking about it.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

I am a fool regularly. Its part of my charm.

Sat today,
Adam

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[Jakuden]

Also, the impression I get from reading Steve Heine's new book on Dogen, is that Dogen says awakening (as synonymous with the word "enlightenment") is not wasting life. Not wasting life because of a deep knowledge of impermanence and death. I'm a newbie so I hope this is correct and relevant.

Gassho,
Tom

Sat/Lah

[Jundo]

Also, the impression I get from reading Steve Heine's new book on Dogen, is that Dogen says awakening (as synonymous with the word "enlightenment") is not wasting life. Not wasting life because of a deep knowledge of impermanence and death. I'm a newbie so I hope this is correct and relevant.

Also, seeing through life, through death too, unto this never born or dying, neither coming or going, which can never be wasted no matter how much we foolishly try.

Nevertheless, there is also life and death, healthy roads and those which are not, so do not squander this life before you die.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Ippo]

What a brilliant and "enlightening" thread. Thank you all for you thoughts and words.

Gassho,

Ippo

SatToday

[shikantazen]

Brad told me he didn't have any experiences for many years and then in the last few months before his awakening experience he had a few. This seems to be the way of this practice. Just Sitting and a sudden experience one day, especially when you care least about it.

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Jundo]

Brad told me he didn't have any experiences for many years and then in the last few months before his awakening experience he had a few. This seems to be the way of this practice. Just Sitting and a sudden experience one day, especially when you care least about it.

Gassho,
Sam
ST

And then move on, with or without, neither clinging nor running toward nor running away ... just moving on.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Horin]

I'm not even sure, if experiences like Satori or Kensho are really important for our practice at all.
When we sitting through any condition, we can realize that which is beyond all states and conditions.
With or without extraordinary moments of "Satori", isn't it?

Gassho
Horin/Ben

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Ryumon]

I read Peter Matthiessen's Nine-Headed Dragon River over the past few days. In the beginning, he's into Rinzai zen, and it's all about the kensho, and deeper kensho, and MU! But he then discovers Soto zen, and the difference is stark. I think we may have been too influenced by books like The Three Pillars of Zen, and think that kensho is a goal. For those doing shikantaza, it's not.

By the way, this is a very interesting book, once you get about 1/3 of the way through, and he's gone through Rinzai, and spent some time in Tibet. He does a sort of pilgrimage with Bernie Glassman to the great temples, and his "travel writing" along with reflections on Dogen are quite beautiful.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Jishin]

Brad told me he didn't have any experiences for many years and then in the last few months before his awakening experience he had a few. This seems to be the way of this practice. Just Sitting and a sudden experience one day, especially when you care least about it.

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Hi Sam,

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around, does it make a sound? If Brad has an enlightenment experience and you are not around to listen to him tell about his enlightenment experience, does he have an enlightenment experience?

Without a sufficient amount of enlightenment experiences to attract students he would not have any students and then would have no enlightenment experiences. You make him enlightened.

Enlightenment experiences are masters in my opinion. You should have no masters (enlightenment). Only then you will be free.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

PS: did Brad become a slave to enlightenment?

[shikantazen]

Hi Sam,

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around, does it make a sound? If Brad has an enlightenment experience and you are not around to listen to him tell about his enlightenment experience, does he have an enlightenment experience?

Without a sufficient amount of enlightenment experiences to attract students he would not have any students and then would have no enlightenment experiences. You make him enlightened.

Enlightenment experiences are masters in my opinion. You should have no masters (enlightenment). Only then you will be free.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

PS: did Brad become a slave to enlightenment?

Just to clarify he talked about them in response to my question about his experiences and when he had them during his years of sittings. He wasn't showing off or talking about them by himself

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Kokuu]

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around, does it make a sound? If Brad has an enlightenment experience and you are not around to listen to him tell about his enlightenment experience, does he have an enlightenment experience?

Without a sufficient amount of enlightenment experiences to attract students he would not have any students and then would have no enlightenment experiences. You make him enlightened.

As Sam says, this is not something Brad talks about much and has only written about in one of his earliest books.

He seems to attract students through his offbeat way of explaining Dogen and practice which (mostly) stays true to Soto tradition while bringing western sensibilities to his teachings.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-