Saying More With Less ...

[disastermouse]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

I'm hesitant to wade in here, but here goes:
It seems that some of the reaction to Jundo's post is a bit off balance. All I read in his post was the same thing that other Zen teachers in the past have said. I'm paraphrasing, but things like, "Choose your words carefully, weighing cost and benefit of them." "Whenever you have the urge to speak, act on those urges only one time out of ten." And so on. I cannot remember hearing or reading where a Zen teacher has suggested that we speak more or that we must express ourselves more. Otherwise, we risk taking our thoughts too seriously by believing that they are all worthy of sharing. So, economy with words appears to be a theme in Zen in my experience.
I don't want to live under some kind of censorship, but that's not what I see here.

S. Suzuki: "Most people who visit a Zen Center find it a strange place. "They do not talk so much. They do not even laugh. What are they doing?" Those who are accustomed to big noises may not notice, but we can communicate without talking so much." Not Always So, p. 11.

Bill

Um. How are we supposed to communicate here without posting?

That's a rather innocent question - but due to the nature of the beast of this medium, an appropriate one.

[Eika]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi, Chet.
Fair question. All I heard was to be prudent in posting, not to stop.
Bill

[Kent]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

This is just getting a bit silly.

Thank you Gregor

[Eika]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

This is just getting a bit silly.

Thank you Gregor

Also, the irony is not wasted on me that the thread that is supposed to be about posting less is the one with the flurry of postings . . . guilty as charged. (I knew I shouldn't have posted . . . Mara made me do it.)

Bill

[TracyF]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

This is just getting a bit silly.

Thank you Gregor

Also, the irony is not wasted on me that the thread that is supposed to be about posting less is the one with the flurry of postings . . . guilty as charged. (I knew I shouldn't have posted . . . Mara made me do it.)

Bill

D'oh! I just posted too! ops:

Gotta say, I must have missed something 'cause all I could see was that pretty picture Jundo posted. Haven't sat in two stinkin' weeks because work was getting me down. Yeah, pretty bassackwards since sitting would have been just the thing I needed but noooooo, I let myself get more crabby. But, I'm back and I'm gonna hit the zen hall in a minute.

Ciao!

[Jundo]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hello All,

Treeleaf is a Zen Sangha, a "Zen Center" like any other ... please do not let the "online", outer form fool 'ya. It is a place dedicated to Soto Zen Buddhist teaching and practice, with a particular teacher, in the manner of Dogen Zenji.

In that way, it is much like a Karate Dojo, where a certain style of Karate is taught and practiced as guided by that place's head teacher. When learning that style of Karate in that place, with that place's Karate teacher, one does not try to practice Ai-ki-do there (or even any other style of Karate). So, what is taught and practiced at Treeleaf Zendo is what is expected to be learned and practiced in this particular place. (To avoid all Japanese cultural references, I like to think of myself as the "Head Coach" as much as the "teacher" ... but it would be the same if this were "Treeleaf Tennis School" or basketball team practice, any school really. When at that tennis school, please hold your racket like the teacher says.)

So, I suppose that if someone is here and does not want to learn what the teacher teaches, or doesn't think of me as the teacher, and is not willing to put that fully into practice when practicing in this particular place ... well, you may be in the wrong place! :roll:

The good news is that there are plenty of places, teachers and teachings in this world, so please feel free to keep on searching. Someone may even be teaching something a lot better than the "non-searching" that is taught here. There are also plenty of online social sites where one can shoot the breeze, and even web sites where (supposedly) open discussion can occur on "Buddhism in general". All those are available.

The other good news is that I never demand that folks practice --only-- what I teach, and people are always free to learn from many teachers and in many traditions to their hearts content (that has been true all through the history of Buddhism and Zen, in fact ... at least since the Buddha died.). I recommend to folks what I think is best, but people will do what they wish anyway. I only ask that, when in this place, we practice just what is taught here, and nothing inconsistent with the teachings and practices taught here. I require that we don't mix and match inconsistent traditions here, and I can't have any of that (I had a fellow write me recently to ask if he could mix, and practice, his Soto Practice with various forms of Tibetan meditation while at Treeleaf. I told him "no". I said I was happy to talk about it ... but not to practice it, and he had to be willing to hear me be very very critical of some things.)

In this Sangha, we all support each other. More experienced folks help to guide newcomers, although we are all beginners at heart. Everyone learns from everyone else, and the teacher is the student of the newest face in the door. But a ship needs a captain (I am really mixing metaphors today). If, when in this place, you do not think of me as your teacher, and if do not you try to put into practice what I guide ... then maybe you should try a different place ... find another ship. We don't chase folks into this place, or chase after folks when they leave. It's a free universe! If you do not care for the teachings here, try the teacher down the street! In fact, if you are ever in a place and think the teacher is full of baloney, RUN, don't walk, for the nearesr door.

This is not a social club, although I love it that folks can be social and make friends. Our focus is the practice of Zen Buddhism in the manner of Dogen Zenji. This Forum is meant, not as a coffee shop or bowling alley, but as a Zen Practice place through words. If you guys want to socialize, we do have a Facebook page ...

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Treeleaf- ... 4694940304

Try over there. But it is my intent that this Forum be very different in atmosphere from most places in the world ... here, we think non-thinking, talk non-talking.

If you don't know what "think non-thinking, talk non-talking" means, then you are in the right place. I will try to teach you.

Gassho, Jundo

PS- Bill said it very well, I think ...

It seems that some of the reaction to Jundo's post is a bit off balance. All I read in his post was the same thing that other Zen teachers in the past have said. I'm paraphrasing, but things like, "Choose your words carefully, weighing cost and benefit of them." "Whenever you have the urge to speak, act on those urges only one time out of ten." And so on. I cannot remember hearing or reading where a Zen teacher has suggested that we speak more or that we must express ourselves more. Otherwise, we risk taking our thoughts too seriously by believing that they are all worthy of sharing. So, economy with words appears to be a theme in Zen in my experience.
I don't want to live under some kind of censorship, but that's not what I see here.

S. Suzuki: "Most people who visit a Zen Center find it a strange place. "They do not talk so much. They do not even laugh. What are they doing?" Those who are accustomed to big noises may not notice, but we can communicate without talking so much." Not Always So, p. 11.

Bill

[disastermouse]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Can you start with explaining 'talking non-talking'?

You haven't said anything I specifically disagree with. Does that make you my teacher?

Lastly, where are those darn Oryoki lessons?

[Jundo]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Can you start with explaining 'talking non-talking'?

You haven't said anything I specifically disagree with. Does that make you my teacher?

Lastly, where are those darn Oryoki lessons?

I am "a" teacher, as are other Buddhist teachers, as are other teachers of all kinds in life ... the rocks and trees are constantly preaching the Dharma. You should follow closely the teachings of the teacher or teachers who resonate most in your life. The ones who resonate ... you should listen to very closely, and should consider them "your" teacher.

Then, at a certain point, feel free to "kill the Buddha", or "not put another head on top of your own". Most folks want to do that too prematurely, however, or don't know the real meaning when the time has come.

"Talking non-talking, thinking non-thinking" just has to be picked up by osmosis. You know it when you taste non-tasting, "non-do" non-doing. But it is pretty much the heart of our Practice.

The Oryoki lessons are coming ... somewhere down the road. After the Rakusu.

Gassho, Coach Jundo

[Voton]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

(except folks who never or infrequently post ... THEY SHOULD POST MORE! ):

This is a koan, I think...like the three bears: am I posting too much, not enough, or JUUUUUUST RIGHT! :lol:

[Jinho]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Can you start with explaining 'talking non-talking'?

You haven't said anything I specifically disagree with. Does that make you my teacher?

Lastly, where are those darn Oryoki lessons?

Hi Mouse!

The oryoki instructions are under "library" , then " zazenkai instructions", then section 7 (how to make very simple oryoki set, #8 is the instructions themselves:

http://www.treeleaf.org/library/zazenka ... php?page=8

I haven't viewed #8 but will probably do so soon.

gassho,
rowan

[Jundo]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi Mouse!

The oryoki instructions are under "library" , then " zazenkai instructions", then section 7 (how to make very simple oryoki set, #8 is the instructions themselves:

http://www.treeleaf.org/library/zazenka ... php?page=8

I haven't viewed #8 but will probably do so soon.

gassho,
rowan

That is, again, an abbreviated form of Oryoki, to give a small taste during a short retreat.

Gassho, J

[Shindo]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Thank for your continued efforts Jundo, it is much appreciated.
Hope to join you all at Saturday's sitting.
Kind regards
Jools

[Jundo]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Thank for your continued efforts Jundo, it is much appreciated.
Hope to join you all at Saturday's sitting.
Kind regards
Jools

Yes, this Saturday is our 4 hour monthly sitting. I hope lots of folks will join us (live and in the "nearly live" versions).

Gassho?J

[agata]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Thank you Jundo.

[replicant]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Also, on another but not necessarily unrelated note, does anyone use the Treeleaf IRC? I got my computer all set up with a Firefox chatzilla plug-in, etc, but every time I log on there's only me and "Mika".

Rob

I wasn't aware of a Treeleaf IRC server .. :?: where is the sever/channel info located?