Saying More With Less ...

[Bansho]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

_()_

[lindabeekeeper]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

from: http://nyokai.com/tips/index.php?n=Tips.Ma

... if in doubt, do what ma says

I've often wondered how come the Zen tradition, whose transmission is heart to heart without words, has such an amazing body of literature.

Gassho,

Linda

[disastermouse]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

from: http://nyokai.com/tips/index.php?n=Tips.Ma

... if in doubt, do what ma says

I've often wondered how come the Zen tradition, whose transmission is heart to heart without words, has such an amazing body of literature.

Gassho,

Linda

LOL! You're right....they all say 'You can't explain it in words.' Then they write books.

On the other hand, sometimes the books inspire one's practice, so...

[roky]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Bob
think i sat with will the other day -- hi will

Hi Bob, but I don't think that was me. I haven't been in the Zen hall for a couple of weeks.



Gassho Will

will -- you know what they say, you see one shaved head, you've seen them all (got that from ronald reagan, kinda) -- particularly out of the corner of one's eye

whoever ever it was, and will too, "hola, amigo"

[Shui_Di]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi, Jundo...

I think we must use the KISS system...

KISS = Keep It Simple and Smart...

Gassho, Shuidi

[KellyRok]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hello Jundo and all,

You are as clear as the cloudless blue sky.

I don't post often, feeling as though I have nothing of real value to contribute as of yet. I choose to stay silent and to learn from your experience. I will try to post more, I may not have any good advice, but I am here thinking about all of you always.

Gassho,
Kelly Rok

[Dojin]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Gassho.

[Gregor]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Thank you Jundo for this important message.

Gassho,

Greg

[Shohei]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

indeed.

Thank you Jundo for this important message.

Gassho,

Greg

^^Greg you said it best awhile ago here.

Gassho, Dirk

[AlanLa]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Yeah, it has seemed a bit loud in here lately, at least to me. So I will try to say this quietly. When I read postings here, just because they stir up ideas in my mind does not mean I have to share those ideas. And when I post, I try to do so mindfully. This takes some of the spontaneity out of it, but it also let's me distill rain into rain drops (for example, I pondered this post for 2-3 days, and now here it is in its own time, simply fine). Finally, just because we have free expression here does not mean it is a free-for-all, meaning chaos (which has its own place elsewhere).

These thoughts are nothing more or nothing less than IMHO.

And now I need a break from the forum for the rest of the day...

[torotech]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

How about I make a suggestion to everybody in the Sangha ....... Cause yourself to skip two out of three postings you wish to make, and answer with silence.

Probably the first time I'm not shocked when a forum admin/creator would ask people to post less. Silence can be golden.

In total agreement,
Brian

[Jinho]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi All!

I love good debates and discussions (don't get me started!!) :wink: I can (and often will) go on all night!

But a Zen Sangha must be a place primarily of silence. We must talk some about our Practice, but only with great reluctance. We can reason about what we "do". But often, the more we reason and analyze, the further we are from its truths. (In that regard, it is precisely the difference between silence, and talking about silence). A Zen Sangha is an endless silent retreat, with a few words of guidance and encouragement here and there.

We all have to be careful about getting caught by the racing mind. Ideas are fascinating, but there can be too many sometimes to allow for sound Zen Practice (which requires a solid dose of "quiet" ... a Practice of "non-thinking"). That does not mean that we should do without all words or discussion ... far from it. But we should often keep to a philosophy of "less is more". Do you know that, in Chinese and Japanese painting (like Zen Practice) ... the portion that speaks the greatest truths is empty space?

Am I clear, or have I said too much?

Gassho, Jundo

Hi Jundo,

Yes I think you have been quite clear. My experience of reading your post is that you have very clearly expressed that you believe you have the right to speak for people other than yourself (or do you believe you are psychic?) and to tell other people what to do (or rather, to strongly suggest what they should do). "We should....", "we have to be careful....", "sangha should be a place of silence....", "A Zen Sangha is an endless silent retreat, with a few words of guidance and encouragement here and there. " Perhaps some other zen sangha is like that, but rather obviously Treeleaf is not. But if there is not enough silence for you, Jundo, then stop reading for awhile. I promise you that if things get ugly or a problem develops, someone will send you a PM.

My ethics is that I believe in respecting other people's right to make choices for themselves. If people wish to write then I believe I they should write (it does no harm since no one is required to read it), if people wish to not write then I would not dream of not respecting that choice. I believe "doing no harm" begins with not telling people what to do, and even BEFORE that, dropping the judgment that I know what's "best" for someone else. This is how I define "respect".

However, if you have some concern (such as "I, Jundo, am concerned that perhaps some people might be getting tangled up in theoretical analysis of zen buddhism") then I hope you express your concern as we all express our concerns for each other (and the universe in general).

Me, I read/listen here at Treeleaf to benefit from EVERYBODY's individual and uniquely personal understanding.

thank you for your time,
rowan
who has to book time to get fabric so she can sew up a rakusu this weekend

[Jundo]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi Jundo,

Yes I think you have been quite clear. My experience of reading your post is that you have very clearly expressed that you believe you have the right to speak for people other than yourself (or do you believe you are psychic?) and to tell other people what to do (or rather, to strongly suggest what they should do).

Perhaps some other zen sangha is like that, but rather obviously Treeleaf is not.

Hello Ros,

Yes, I have that right (though not psychic), and around here, I suggest what folks should do. Sometimes I happily tell them what to do too!

Treeleaf is precisely that, a teaching Sangha. I hope you did not have some other impression.

Thank you for your time too. :wink:

Gassho, Jundo (for better or worse, the teacher)

[Longdog]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Well I'm a bit confuddled :?

Jundo has always been the 'teacher' here, it's his gaff 'Treeleaf Sanga', he seems a good teacher and landlord and is very light handed when some decide turn the music up. No bans, heavy moderation...

I have no problem with him asking people to use kind words, think before they post, or not to use it as some sort of group therapy/counselling service.

He's a bit more Ben Kenobi than Darth Vader don't you think :?:

In gassho, Kev

[robert]

Re: Saying More With Less ...

Hi all,

Maybe an option would be to create a subforum, a "Zen barbershop" or "Zen cafe" for shooting the breeze/bull? And then have another one which is directed more specifically to questions and discussions arising from Jundo's teaching? That way, those who need a place to vent or chat would have one, and those preferring a quieter or more structured environment would have one too...

Just a thought...hope I am not stepping on toes here.

Gassho,
Rob