Psychedlic Buddhism?

[Kyoshin]

There's been a bit of buzz, some rather acrimonious, in some Buddhist circles about a recent article in Lions Roar https://www.lionsroar.com/the-new-wa...hist-practice/ and another similar one in Tricycle about the use of psychedelic drugs as Buddhist practice. While I'm aware of and excited about the amazing potential for the therapeutic use of these drugs in mental health and I fully support their responsible use, I also have alot of addiction in my family and have known people to completely destroy themselves through irresponsible use. I've seen first hand both the great benefit and great suffering that these drugs can cause. However, to promote their use AS BUDDHIST PRACTICE is completely counter to the 5th precept. Now I've been known to have a glass of wine at dinner and even light up a doobie from time to time for medicinal reasons, but in general I'm a big fan of the 5th precept, and I never do any Buddha-stuff if I'm buzzed. To see two such large and respected Buddhist publications suggest that violating the 5th precept can be a valid Buddhist practice is very disturbing, and seems dangerous and irresponsible to the extreme. I can't believe they published this stuff. Am I completely off my rocker here?
Gassho,
Sat
Nick

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[Zenmei]

Psychedlic Buddhism?

To see two such large and respected Buddhist publications suggest that violating the 5th precept can be a valid Buddhist practice is very disturbing, and seems dangerous and irresponsible to the extreme. I can't believe they published this stuff. Am I completely off my rocker here?

Nope, I think you’re right, and most of the Buddhist world would likely agree. I tend to try and avoid judgement on what does or doesn’t violate a precept for someone else, but it’s pretty clear that drug use isn’t Buddhist practice.

Since you bring up addiction, I’d like to mention for anyone who comes across this that we have a “Hungry Ghosts” forum here for anyone who’s dealing with the suffering of addiction in their lives or the lives of their loved ones. Send me a PM if you’re interested.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat)

[Kyoshin]

Thanks Zenmai, I almost didn't post this because I try really hard not to judge how anybody else does Buddhism. If a friend came up to me in private and told me about how dropping acid helped his or her practice, I might have some pointed questions, but in the end as long they aren't hurting themselves or anyone else, I'm fine with whatever they feel they need to do. However, for a big respected authoritative publication to promote drug use as Buddhist practice to thousands of people crosses a big fat red line.

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[Jundo]

My Dharma Bro. Brad Warner has been extremely critical of that article. Here is my personal feeling.

There may be a place, at certain times in life for some of us, to experiment and expand the mind with such means (I have no regrets of some dabbling and exploration when much younger, and it never took over my life) ... but, Brad is right, it is not Dharma Practice. Furthermore, confusing the two merely takes people on the hungry hunt seeking spiritual entertainment and a wild goose chase away from the Truth right here.

Further, dabbling with mind altering substances, even marijuana or a glass of wine, may be fine for some or most folks in the proper setting (for example, not when driving, for example, and not when sitting Zazen). However, for someone with addiction issues, even one puff or drop may be POISON. (Unfortunately, not all the friends I knew when younger were left undamaged by the experience, and some really lost themselves in drugs or drink).

Brad had a prior post on "the helicopter and the mountain" that is simple and brilliant ...

During the discussion, one of the supporters of drug abuse as a way to gain spiritual insight started in with the time worn cliché that drugs are like taking a helicopter to the top of a mountain rather than climbing it. You get the same breathtaking view as someone who has climbed the mountain. But you get there much quicker and more easily. “You can’t deny it’s exactly the same view,” one guy said. But, in fact, I would unequivocally deny that it’s the same view. It’s not. Not at all.

Let’s say you met a veteran mountaineer with over a quarter century of climbing experience, a person who has written books on mountain climbing and routinely personally instructs others in the art of climbing. And let’s imagine what would happen if you tried to convince this guy that people who take helicopters to the tops of mountains get everything that mountain climbers get and get it a whole lot easier.

The mountain climber would certainly tell you that the breathtaking view a guy who takes a helicopter to the top of a mountain gets is not in any way, shape or form the same view that a person who climbs the mountain herself gets.

To the mountain climber, the guy in the helicopter is just a hyperactive thrill seeker who wants nothing more than to experience a pretty view without putting any effort into it. The helicopter guy thinks the goal of mountain climbing is to be on top of the mountain and that climbing is an inefficient way to accomplish this goal. He just doesn’t get it. At all.

The helicopter guy misses out on the amazing sights there are to see on the way up. He doesn’t know the thrill of mastering the mountain through his own efforts. He doesn’t know the hardships and dangers involved in making the climb. And he’ll never know the awesome wonder of descending the mountain back into familiar territory. All he’s done is given some money to a person who owns a helicopter. He probably couldn’t even find the mountain himself, let alone make it to the top. When there are no helicopters around, the poor guy is helplessly grounded.

If the helicopter guy claims that he has reached the same place as the mountain climber, the mountain climber knows in ways the helicopter guy can’t even fathom that the helicopter guy is a fool.

To a mountain climber, the goal of mountain climbing is not the moment of sitting on top enjoying the view. That’s just one small part of the experience. It may not even be the best part. To a mountain climber, every view, from every point on the mountain is significant and wonderful.

People who think that the pinnacle of the experience is that moment of being right on the tippy-top, don’t understand the experience at all. The poor attention addled things probably never will.

http://hardcorezen.info/drugs-meditation-and-mountain-climbing/5388

We will be reflecting on this more, in a few weeks, as we begin our Jukai preparations and reflections on the Precepts (including the Precepts on Intoxication) at the start of September. Look for an announcement later this week!

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Kyoshin]

Thanks for sharing the helicopter story, Jundo. That's brilliant.
Gassho
Nick
Sat

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[Jishin]

Psychedlic Buddhism?

Hi Nick,

I agree. Practice and intoxication do not go well together. Never say never though. I dont encourage this approach but if you want to see some truly awakened and enlightened ones, take a stroll to your local 12 Step group. These people have gone to hell and back whereas most are afraid of going to hell. Their approach to life reflects this. They would not be awaked but for the suffering that got them there. There is a little saying in these places that goes something like this:

Buddha,

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference.

I think this is a beautiful saying that would not be taken to heart if not for intoxicants.

Some people even get prominent tattoos of this hard earned little prayer as a reminder.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[MyoHo]

Yes yes, very good story and thank you Jundo for your words. It seems a sign of our times that people want everything quick, easy and giftwrapped. Thats why our practice is so valuable in so many ways. " Look dad I just became Olympic Champion in snowboarding!!!!" Eeeehh, no. You can move your thumbs really fast. ��. Wanna go snowboarding for real and see what its like?

I cant see why one would use drugs in Practice. Whats the point?

Gassho

ST

MyoHo

[Jishin]

Psychedlic Buddhism?

I cant see why one would use drugs in Practice. Whats the point?

Lots of reasons. One may do method acting to infiltrate the world of the suffering and bring them back to life.

Narcotic officers.

A regular Joe getting drunk with an alcoholic to spreed the message.

To play a part in a movie.

Open your eyes.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Doshin]

I think me wasted too much time exploring psychedelics in the 1960s. Did it have an affect on my awareness or was it all delusion? Don’t know, but would like to recapture the time spent in mental confusion and had spent it on other things. But then it was the 1960s, different time in many ways. You know turn on, tune in, drop out...I never got to step 3. Not a major regret, just a different priority at this point in my life. But that’s just me. I believe Timothy Leary would disagree with me though.



Gassho
Doshin
St

[MyoHo]

Lots of reasons. One may do method acting to infiltrate the world of the suffering and bring them back to life.

Narcotic officers.

A regular Joe getting drunk with an alcoholic to spreed the message.

To play a part in a movie.

Open your eyes.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Like I said, what is the point. None of these are Practice. Its taking the helicopter to a oildrilling platform on the ocean so the guys can get to work. Thats different. Why would one use drugs in regular day to day sitting practice. What will you find there that is not here, right now in front of you. Or is it that open eyes is not the issue?

[Jishin]

Like I said, what is the point. None of these are Practice. Its taking the helicopter to a oildrilling platform on the ocean so the guys can get to work. Thats different. Why would one use drugs in regular day to day sitting practice. What will you find there that is not here, right now in front of you. Or is it that open eyes is not the issue?

Well...

All of life is our temple.

I don't think you know what the meaning of Practice is.

I would keep my mouth shut until you been pushed out of a car by using associates after an overdose and brought back to life again by ER personnel who happen to be in recovery. Or by professionals in recovery who can Practice effectively because of their life experiences. Or by laymen who Practice effectively by sharing their experiences, strength and hope with others that only understand recovery when it comes from the mouth of one that is in recovery.

You sound like an armchair buddhist. A bodhisattva saves the world first before crossing to the other side. You seem to want to save yourself first. But to judge is wrong and so I will stop here.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Tairin]

...and I never do any Buddha-stuff if I'm buzzed.

Hard to say this without coming off as judgemental but here it goes....

Isn’t it all “Buddha-stuff”? Being a Buddhist and living by the Precepts isn’t a thing you turn off and on.


Tairin
Sat today

[Kokuu]

I would keep my mouth shut until you been pushed out of a car by using associates after an overdose and brought back to life again by ER personnel who happen to be in recovery. Or by professionals in recovery who can Practice effectively because of their life experiences. Or by laymen who Practice effectively by sharing their experiences, strength and hope with others that only understand recovery when it comes from the mouth of one that is in recovery.

Jishin

You clearly have valuable experience in dealing with people going through problems with substance abuse and I am sure many people have good reason to be grateful to you for that.

However, I don't think that any of those examples are support for the ongoing use of psychedelics. Sure, past experience and even tasting what your patients are going through may be valuable but is unlikely to apply to the vast majority of those on the Buddhist path considering whether or not to use non-prescription pharmaceuticals to enhance their practice. Even those drawing on their past experience of drug use are unlikely to benefit from an ongoing habit.

Someone is hardly an armchair Buddhist because they haven't brought someone back from overdose.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Kyoshin]

Isn’t it all “Buddha-stuff”? Being a Buddhist and living by the Precepts isn’t a thing you turn off and on.

All true, and I thank you for the reminder. However, living by the precepts looks different for different people. For example, my marijuana use was medicinal, for chronic pain, anxiety, and seasonal affective disorder (thankfully all much improved since moving to a hot climate). My way of squaring that with the precepts was to never sit while feeling the mental effects. And I've certainly never encouraged anyone to break them as a matter of so-called "Buddhist practice."

Gassho
Nick
Satlah

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[Tairin]

All true, and I thank you for the reminder. However, living by the precepts looks different for different people. For example, my marijuana use was medicinal, for chronic pain, anxiety, and seasonal affective disorder (thankfully all much improved since moving to a hot climate). My way of squaring that with the precepts was to never sit while feeling the mental effects. And I've certainly never encouraged anyone to break them as a matter of so-called "Buddhist practice."

Gassho
Nick
Satlah

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Hi Nick

Thank you for the clarification and to be clear I am not opposed to the use of drugs for clear medical purposes. I read your comment about getting “buzzed” as implying recreational use of drugs. My apologies for jumping to conclusions


Tairin
Sat today