The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

[Shui_Di]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi Kirk...

I think precept is not something like a national law, and you will be punished if you don't do it.
I think the precept is just the nature of a human being. Even a tiger know how to love her child, not to do harm to her child, but to be helpful to her child, without learning in "tiger school". it's just its nature.

Human being also the same, the precept is not something that we should do, but something that we will do "naturally" when we see "the real dragon" (I got the word "real dragon" from Fukan-Zazengi).

So, precept is Zazen, and Zazen is precept.

And about "saving the world", ... I think if we can do the precept, we have saved the world. Even in the smallest act, if we try our best not to do harm, being healthful and helpful, we have saved the world (of course not whole of the world, but you know 1000 steps started from 1 step).

And I think if Jundo didn't want to save the world, then there will be no Treeleaf now :P

Gassho, Shui Di

[Jundo]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

I don't see what any sort of practice - call it what you like; religious, spiritual, mental, psychological - has to do with helping others. While such a practice may enable you to see the world more clearly and understand what goes on - including suffering - there's nothing in the package of that practice that includes a "save the world" attitude. The precepts may tell you that, but the precepts are not sitting, they are an additional part of the worldview you adopt (or not) when doing this practice.

Kirk

Hi Kirk,

I rather disagree with some of that.

Whether you decide to help others or not, or "save the world" or not, is up to you. However, if you decide that helping others is part of the package, then it just is ... and then your Practice includes helping others. What is more, a Practice focused only on yourself is a poorer Practice, I think.

I also think that the Precepts are sitting itself, and are as important to our Practice as sitting. It is a mistake to take the sitting without the Precepts. You can, but it is a little dangerous ... like running a bank without limits and ethical guidelines, very risky.

Gassho, Jundo

[Ryumon]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

I don't see what any sort of practice - call it what you like; religious, spiritual, mental, psychological - has to do with helping others. While such a practice may enable you to see the world more clearly and understand what goes on - including suffering - there's nothing in the package of that practice that includes a "save the world" attitude. The precepts may tell you that, but the precepts are not sitting, they are an additional part of the worldview you adopt (or not) when doing this practice.

Kirk

[Jundo]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi Steph,

First, thank you Bill & Will for citing the Precepts, the Four Vows. That is at the heart of our Practice, right with Zazen. Thank you Charles and Chris for wise perspectives too.

Steph, I think you still mischaracterize a lot of stuff! You do not need to see our teachings in the narrow way you say. I have told you that before. :wink:

There is absolutely nothing about our practice that stops us from changing the world, leading a revolution if we want. Certainly, our "acceptance" of the world is anything but "complacency". We are free to feed the hungry, comfort the needy, protest a war, find a cure for a disease ... and we are free to do none of those things. But the Precepts, and our view of the inter-connectness of all beings, would certainly push us down the former path of charity and compassion. I consider the Buddha to have been a revolutionary, as much as Che' or MLK!

And as to finding inspiration and spiritual meaning ... we believe that you need to look inside yourself, and all around the very place where you are standing ... maybe as much or more than you need to look to the sky for inspiration. If you are uninspired, perhaps you are not seeing what is right in front of your eyes. That is our view.

Bottom line: How you choose to act (or not act), how you choose to see life: Largely up to you.

Gassho, Jundo

[Chris H]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

I found a passage in Uchiyama Roshi's Opening the Hand of Thought that speaks to your questions. I've had some of the same concerns as you Stephanie.

The mother takes care of her child, but in doing so, she's not sacrificing herself; on the contrary, with a nurturing love she looks after the child as her own life. The Lotus Sutra says, "The three worlds are my possessions, and all sentient beings therein are my children." This is the fundamental spirit of Buddhism, and the source of this spirit is nothing other than settling in the zazen that precedes all distinctions.

In other words, for the person who sits zazen, vow is nothing other than the practitioner's own life; so we see all encounters—with things, situations, people, society—as nothing but our own life and we function solely with the spirit of looking after our own life. Therefore, like the mother's caring for her child, we aim to function unconditionally and tirelessly and, moreover, to do so without expecting any reward.

It is not to profit personally or become famous that we take good care of things, devote ourselves to our work, love those whom we encounter, or demonstrate our concern for social problems. I take care of my own life—I take care of the world as my own life—moment by moment, and in each situation I enable the flower of my life to bloom, working solely that the light of buddha may shine.

This is essentially what Alberto eloquently stated in the "Tying Up" thread.

[Charles]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

The one thing this school really seems to offer--the possibility of living a more peaceful life--leaves me a bit cold, and almost seems immoral to me at times; I think, "Shouldn't people feel driven to change their lives and change the world for the better? Shouldn't people not be at peace with the current state of the world? Shouldn't people plugged into Truth see that there's something wrong with this world and feel driven to work for a better, more just world?"

I think that feeling driven and not being at peace aren't prerequisites for working to relieve suffering.

To put it another way: we aren't morally obligated to feel anything, only to act. I'm not required to feel horrible in order to help people who feel horrible; and, in my experience, I'm more effective in action when I don't feel horrible. If anything, I owe it to other people to hold myself together -- to resist depression and anguish -- so that I can be useful.

As a practical example, I've given a lot of emotional support to someone close to me this year, someone who's suffering from depression and who's having a hard time mustering the energy to keep going. I've been able to do this only because I'm not suffering in the same ways.

"Now, I've chosen to preach about the war in Vietnam because I agree with Dante, that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality. There comes a time when silence becomes betrayal."

I think I don't need to believe anything about anyone burning anywhere in order to speak out. But as far as I can tell, this practice doesn't demand that we remain silent.

--Charles

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

To save all sentient beings though beings are numberless.

May all beings be happy
May they be peaceful
May they be free

This caretaking practice is dedicated to all beings
---------------------------

Zazen is not ignorance or bliss. It is Buddha. When you actualize Zazen in a balanced state, you actualize Buddha.

When you attach to ideas of good and bad, cold and bliss, you miss the point. Keep sitting I guess.

We, we, we. How about you just look at you for now.

All of the thousands of Teachers who have taught thousands or millions of beings to live peacefully and balanced in this world is passive?

All of the teachers who have travelled around the world to spread the teachings is passive?

All the Karma that has been reversed by this practice is passive?

Sure we can change the world, but the world also includes your balance, compassion, joy and the way you relate to others in this world.

This idea that existence is evil by default is just something that you are thinking too much about. It seems to me.

When we are balanced and open we can do something that needs to be done. We can do it fully, mindfully and awake.

I'm sure there are many Zen practicioners who have done honourable things in helping others and changing the situation of this world (even if only a small part).

Don't fit everything into a narrow category please.

Gassho Will

[Eika]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Stephanie wrote:
Wouldn't a true person want to do more than just passively "desist from evil," but also want to actively realize Good? And in our modern world, couldn't we say that a life of quiet acceptance of "everyday life" is a form of evil, that in its passivity allows the world's evils to go on unchallenged? We cannot say any more that a person ceases from actively accomplishing evil by simply being a nice person who does not actively seek to harm others; given that most of us buy products or enjoy benefits from enterprises that are harmful and destructive, it seems our very existence is a sort of evil if we do not take up the call to do something more than just get by...

That is why Zen is more than just zazen.

1. I will refrain from killing.

2. I will refrain from stealing.

3. I will refrain from abusing sexuality.

4. I will refrain from speaking untruthfully.

5. I will refrain from encouraging, delusion in myself and others.

6. I will refrain from malicious speech.

7. I will refrain from being proud of myself and belittling others.

8. I will refrain from holding back in giving either Dharma or wealth.

9. I will refrain from indulging in anger.

10. I will refrain from defaming the Three Treasures.

I. Do no evil.
II. Do good.
III. Do good for others.

What is outside of this that could help the world?

Gassho,
Bill

...as I understand it is to let go of goals and experience acceptance of all passing conditions. Striving for kensho and special experiences, and striving to change or improve the self, seem to be the antitheses of a shikantaza-based practice.

I can understand this philosophically and experientially, yet something also feels "wrong" about it to me. I find myself wondering, "What would a world in which people did not strive to change things for the better be like?" I find the practice of shikantaza extremely valuable, yet as a religiously minded person, I find I have to go somewhere outside of this school for other spiritual resources, as it is an entirely un-inspiring religion when it comes to social change and visions for a better world.

The one thing this school really seems to offer--the possibility of living a more peaceful life--leaves me a bit cold, and almost seems immoral to me at times; I think, "Shouldn't people feel driven to change their lives and change the world for the better? Shouldn't people not be at peace with the current state of the world? Shouldn't people plugged into Truth see that there's something wrong with this world and feel driven to work for a better, more just world?" Wouldn't a true person want to do more than just passively "desist from evil," but also want to actively realize Good? And in our modern world, couldn't we say that a life of quiet acceptance of "everyday life" is a form of evil, that in its passivity allows the world's evils to go on unchallenged? We cannot say any more that a person ceases from actively accomplishing evil by simply being a nice person who does not actively seek to harm others; given that most of us buy products or enjoy benefits from enterprises that are harmful and destructive, it seems our very existence is a sort of evil if we do not take up the call to do something more than just get by...

In 1967, the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., said, "Now, I've chosen to preach about the war in Vietnam because I agree with Dante, that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality. There comes a time when silence becomes betrayal."

What do you all think?