The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

[Dojin]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

could be, could be Steph... but than again... who is to decide what is the best action?
maybe if everyone one did their part and acted kindly to one another it would change the world much more than a grand revolution?
i think that do teach people and help them one by one... by living a life that is kind and compassionate we might actually help more than by trying to change everything that seems wrong.
live your life... day by day moment by moment while straving to do good and to avoid evil if everyone did that the world would be better than by any great movment to change the world and bring social justice...

but than again i may be wrong...

we each must find our way to live according to what is right for us.

The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one

Wilhelm Stekel (Austrian psychoanalyst, 1868-1940)

i first read it in the catcher in the rye when i was 17, and it always stayed with me... i think he has a point

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Zen, thanks for your reply. In my personal vision, I see no utopia to strive for, no perfect way for things to be; nor do I see any evil beings for us to fight or destroy. What I see is greed and ignorance causing unnecessary suffering, and a world full of people that know a lot of things are wrong, but are in denial or too cynical to do anything about them. Racism, sexism, oppression, exploitation--these are things we can do something about, and that a lot of people are doing something about. And you can work against these things without hatred, but with joy and even a sense of humor. The joy of social justice work is that if it is done out of metta, out of respect and concern for others instead of anger and blame, everyone lightens up, even in really ugly situations. It's almost like the magic you read about in fairy tales as a little kid. People don't really understand what's happening, or why something that seemed so ugly and difficult actually can be a pleasure. It's remarkable.

One of the few truths I have discovered is that our capacity to imagine a better world and to work to bring it about, whatever it is, wherever it comes from, and whyever it exists, if there is any reason at all, is sacred; true awakening is not passive or self-indulgent, but is manifested as the recognition of a call to action. This is even modelled for us in the story of the Buddha's awakening: his first impulse was simply to enjoy his inner freedom, but then the Gods asked him to teach, to live a life of action for the benefit of sentient beings, and Indra and Brahma helped him realize his duty to the rest of the world as an awakened being. And I think that anyone who in their heart knows that something is wrong, whether or not they are perfectly enlightened, has a duty to respond to that knowledge. That is the Mahayana in action.

Gassho--

[Dojin]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice..

A beautiful post--gassho--I just disagree with the premises that (a) people need to be enlightened to manifest Dharmic activity in the world and (b) zazen acts like a magic eraser that erases all of your bad stuff and that thus makes your actions better. Don't get me wrong, I've found that the practice of zazen has certainly helped me to become a wiser, more compassionate, braver person. It's just that I've also found that nothing, including zazen, is a "fix" for the dichotomy of human existence, that we are so good, but also so rotten. And people who think that spiritual practice and all the nice side effects it can bring about deliver them from evil often end up doing some pretty atrocious things. That is the dark side of idealism--that our preference for the beautiful visions we can conjure up can blind us to some of the less appetizing aspects of our own current realities, that need to be dealt with in a much less airy-fairy way.

Hey Stephanie.

i think you are kinda fixed on some idea you have, which is things should be a certain way...
maybe they should, but than again maybe they should be any way but the way they are?

changing the world? being enlightened in order to do so? i am not sure.
i think that by being enlightened you are nothing but an enlightened person.
you dont have to do anything... but it is our nature that arises in us and guides all our actions whether we like it or not.
yet our true self or buddha self as some call it has been lost, it has been buried under our knowledge, teaching, costumes, society, and all we think we know or we think we are.
by dropping all those things you become nothing more than a person that dropped them.
i also believe that people are good deep down. and a person who has dropped it all will be more likely to help from compassion.

when i was younger i wanted to change the world. i wanted to fight in justice. i wanted to force the world to see the light and be good.
you cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs...
i emphasized the word fight for a reason, many people who try to change the world try to do it for the wrong reasons. they see it as a war... we have to fight against evil... we need to open the eyes of the people, we need to abolish tyranny... we must defeat evil...

it is a fight we do it since it is something we believe in... our view of the world is right it cant be the other way around... it has to be this way!!!
it is a selfish view... many people wish to help so they could feel better about themselves, it is another reason which is selfish.

a person who helps from a sense of compassion does that for other reasons... he accepts all views and only strives to help while doing no evil...
would a person who is against the killing of baby seals for their fur help a starving men eat and feed his family by helping him kill that seal?

about erasing the past and such by zazen... i do not believe it to be so, i do not think it really changes anything. i have done many things i am not proud of and hurt many people and i am likely to slip up and do might hurt some other people. so i dont think zazen erases anything.. but it might help me deal with my life and understand myself and other people better by giving me the ability to control myself better, and the precepts help guide me when ever i get lost...
one thing i did notice the i developed from the practice is this.
even if i lose my grip and hurt people and say things that might not be very nice... i know what i did and that i did something hurtful and i can come over and apologize and ask for forgiveness.

the point is no body is perfect... we all get side tracked sometimes. yet it is our practice and our way of life that hopefully helps us do the right thing in the end...

talked so much, said so little seems little!
forgive me if i have wasted your time.

p.s.

there is wonderful metaphor for the practice of zen

http://www.emoyeni-retreat.com/id99.htm

gassho

[Eika]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

We cannot blame our inaction on Zen.



Gassho,
Bill

[prg5001]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi,

The "point" of Shikantaza-based Zen practice to me is to try and see the way things really are, to see what is really going on. First, it's a uncomfortable struggle, then a bit of quiet comes along with a few whizzes and bangs, then an awareness of what is happening at that time. I see thoughts come and go, hear noises, feel air moving all in the same context of me.

I don't think this directly makes me a better person, but because each time I sit, I see a little bit more of myself I see how a human being (me) is in the world. And so I can understand a little bit more of what I am and where I am. And with a little bit more understanding come a bit more compassion, I can see my state and so empathise with others automatically, like people with similar problems form self-help groups as they understand and can help each other without condesenscion.

I'm not sure if I expressed this very well or this answers the question. It's a big quesion.

Cheers,

Paul

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice..

Not doing harm I think comes naturally from Zazen. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure either :wink:

A beautiful post--gassho--I just disagree with the premises that (a) people need to be enlightened to manifest Dharmic activity in the world and (b) zazen acts like a magic eraser that erases all of your bad stuff and that thus makes your actions better. Don't get me wrong, I've found that the practice of zazen has certainly helped me to become a wiser, more compassionate, braver person. It's just that I've also found that nothing, including zazen, is a "fix" for the dichotomy of human existence, that we are so good, but also so rotten. And people who think that spiritual practice and all the nice side effects it can bring about deliver them from evil often end up doing some pretty atrocious things. That is the dark side of idealism--that our preference for the beautiful visions we can conjure up can blind us to some of the less appetizing aspects of our own current realities, that need to be dealt with in a much less airy-fairy way.

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice..

Thank you for your post Stephanie.

Not doing harm I think comes naturally from Zazen. I'm not sure. When we aren't necessarily running around doing what we "think" is right. You see, there's this joy that comes from practice. When you smell, and just let everything be. Now, I don't have all the answers. I don't really know what to say, but I sat outside today with the trees and flies and insects and birds letting everything be. Somewhere in there (I don't know how or when) I actually started paying attention, or became intimate without attachment.

I got up, could have stayed sitting I guess, but I got up and started walking back to the apartment. Usually when I encounter people there is some sort of tension or aversion. However, that wasn't there. I could sense it arising, but it just didn't. Within that there was no anger or greed. I felt a perhaps "Love" for what I encountered. People, birds etc.. (Not the frilly pink heart Love) but just a compassion maybe. Now, I really can't say anything about it. I don't know. I'm not tripping out. The "I" that usually guides me wasn't there like usual. I wasn't really afraid like I usually am.

I just got back and am now typing this out.

Thank you for your effort I guess.

Gassho Will

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi Steph,

Plenty of doctors, despite the Hypocratic oath, have done horrible things. Other doctors have saved countless lives.

You are right that Zen practice, or even being so-called "enlightened", sure ain't a requisite for effective, compassionate activity in the world. Anyone is capable of that! But if employed wisely, Zen practice can be a stimulus and support for someone engaged in such activities.

Gassho, Jundo

Jundo --gassho-- I agree completely. Here's what I was disagreeing with:

It is better not to act at all, than to act in delusion.

[Jundo]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Will, I'd think you'd have lived long enough by now for life to have knocked that unrealistic idealism out of you. If you sit around waiting until you're perfectly free from delusion or bad habits to act on behalf of realizing good for others, you're never going to end up doing anything but sitting around. Plenty of un-enlightened, flawed people have done amazing things to actualize social justice, while plenty of so-called "enlightened" individuals, who have been given Dharma transmission by respected teachers, who have sat hours and hours of zazen over years and years, have done a lot of horrible and destructive things and harmed a lot of people. Zazen isn't a magic pill that takes away your human foibles. It certainly can (but does not necessarily) help you deal with situations better and more clearly, but it's not a prerequisite for effective, compassionate activity in the world. Also, in my opinion, zazen is only as useful as the life in which it is practiced.

I like what Shui Di said.

Gassho--

Hi Steph,

Plenty of doctors, despite the Hypocratic oath, have done horrible things. Other doctors have saved countless lives.

You are right that Zen practice, or even being so-called "enlightened", sure ain't a requisite for effective, compassionate activity in the world. Anyone is capable of that! But if employed wisely, Zen practice can be a stimulus and support for someone engaged in such activities.

Gassho, Jundo

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Will, I'd think you'd have lived long enough by now for life to have knocked that unrealistic idealism out of you. If you sit around waiting until you're perfectly free from delusion or bad habits to act on behalf of realizing good for others, you're never going to end up doing anything but sitting around. Plenty of un-enlightened, flawed people have done amazing things to actualize social justice, while plenty of so-called "enlightened" individuals, who have been given Dharma transmission by respected teachers, who have sat hours and hours of zazen over years and years, have done a lot of horrible and destructive things and harmed a lot of people. Zazen isn't a magic pill that takes away your human foibles. It certainly can (but does not necessarily) help you deal with situations better and more clearly, but it's not a prerequisite for effective, compassionate activity in the world. Also, in my opinion, zazen is only as useful as the life in which it is practiced.

I like what Shui Di said.

Gassho--

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Indeed. When Zazen is fully active there really is no need for precepts I think. However, we are not superhuman Zen machines. We are not always mindful and we have bad habits. The precepts for each person perhaps are used in a different way. When we are not aware of what we are doing the precepts are a good way to keep us on track.

It is better not to act at all, than to act in dellusion. Most of the time we actually are running around deluded, so let's see. You get angry at someone or tell someone something which causes a tense, sad or angry feeling. Now with the precepts they give us a guide. Do not criticize others. We have enough to do with our own habit and practice. Yet it is tempting. It is all tempting when we have such a small self. We are bound to do all kinds of stuff for all kinds of imaginary reasons.

I don't know about you, but when I started sitting I was apt to follow all kinds of thoughts and cravings. Most (I think) have to sit for a time before there Zazen brings them to a point where the precepts naturally arise.

When we are intimate with the body and have an awareness of it, we start to see how we should take care of it. When we actually taste the things we are putting in their mouth, we don't really need to indulge so much.

When we have intelligence to act in a situation with right view, right effort, right understanding, and intelligence then we can just throw all the precepts away or give them to someone else.

Some of us already know something, so we don't really need a guide, but some of us are in the dark. Some of us get flustered. Some of us are bound by our misunderstanding and small mind. Some of us might use Zazen practice for our own profit. Some of us might wander here and there. Of course there is no right or wrong really. Just intelligent sense.

Now let me give you an example of something:

I live in a apartment building with a lot of University students. They throw garbage and break beer bottles on the ground. So I told them. I don't understand why they do this? Is this good for the environment? etc.(I knew why they do it from a practice perspective). It just seemed like I needed to tell them this. At first I was a little shaky, not very mindful and a little angry (not angry at them, but just wanted to get the point across). I sat down for a minute payed attention and then calmed down. I talked with one of the students who said they won't do it anymore. They will put it in the trash now. We picked up the pieces and put them in the trash. I have told them things on a couple of occasions. They might see me as some asshole, but it's not really for my benefit that they do that.

Now I got the feeling after dealing with that situation, that who am I to tell them what to do? I am not sure if it was right action. I feel it was right or good, but perhaps could have been handled in a different way because I see how my own practice is lacking.

Gassho

[chicanobudista]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

I consider the Buddha to have been a revolutionary, as much as Che' or MLK!

Please don't mention Che and MLK in the same sentence. They were very different; and Che was not what some have made him out to be.

Though I may disagree with your take on Che, I do agree that MLK and Ernesto Guevara come from different political perspectives in so far as revolutionary change in a society. Though, it's worth mentioning that MLK is far more revolutionary than what is portrayed in most mainstream history books.

[Dainin]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Deleted

[Eika]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

My point is that you don't need to sit to abide by the precepts, and you don't need to abide by the precepts to sit. Traditionally, in zen, they go together, but there's no inherent reason why they should.

Kirk

Except that to call it "Zen" they need to be together. Otherwise, it is shikantaza, that is, a particular practice, devoid of all moral/ethical/philosophical trappings. There is a reason we call Zen Zen and shikantaza shikantaza. One is a portion of the other, not the entirety.

Bill

[Ryumon]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

My point is that you don't need to sit to abide by the precepts, and you don't need to abide by the precepts to sit. Traditionally, in zen, they go together, but there's no inherent reason why they should.

Kirk